Ewfflyer

Just food for thought, but the airlines aren't the only jobs out there. Look @ Climbto350 for an example. Yes these might not be the best jobs, but for people in the middle of a rock and a hard place can find something if they try.

I fly 135, I love it!!! Knocking on wood here, but hopefully in 6 months I'll be flying a jet, straight from a C-310. I can tell you the route I took, not only pays me more than FO's on any regional, but more than Capt at some of them also(I've been at this job since Oct 05). I lucked out, not as many places pay nearly as well as my employer, but it was a random chance and I love it.

There are jobs out there, it's just too many people are looking for the quick jump up. Charter, banner towing, CFI, Alaska bush(I'd do it if I wasn't married). For me, if teaching would be financially feasible, I'd be a lifetime CFI! I can at least look foward to it as a retirement hobby, because I love to teach. Just keep your eyes and ears open, something will usually jump your way. We as pilots should encourage and nuture anyone interested in flying, because without it, aviation will die

LAfrequentflyer

I look into 135 jobs all the time in / around Charlotte , NC area. If I can get one with a good company I'll never consider the airlines. Being home with family is too important. However, if I don't find one that works I'll be going to the regionals.

I'd love to CFI as a retirement hobby...

-LAFF

Baradium

Where exactly did you hear this? I actually have heard (from sources within these "fancier" airlines) that fighter jocks aren't any more desirable, and in some cases are *less* desirable than the transport guys because the transport guys have multi turbine time, and heavy multi turbine if they flew a KC-135 or other large aircraft. That is a LOT closer to an airliner than an F-15 so the airlines prefer that transport time.


I still don't agree with your pilot numbers.

I do think you think you're helping people with these numbers, but I don't think they are anywhere near accurate and all data is taken in the worst light possible. Seems to be a lot of conjecture as well.


I will agree that this buisiness is all about connections. Many companies want an internal recommendation from any applicants.

SkyHigh

Like you mentioned it is all about connections. The fighter jocks are the heroes of the military, the cool guys at school. Even though flying a F16 has little in common with a 737 they still gain preference due to the coolness factor. If pilots were really chosen for their background and experience things would be vastly different. A kc135 is still great experience and if sitting in a room of RJ pilots I am sure they would win out but in the end it is all about connections and at the majors there is quite a strong internal network of ex-fighter pilots.

Even if taken at one half my estimates it is still crushing odds. As another offering into evidence the minimums at the majors have been climbing steadily since the late 1980's. Back then UAL demanded at least 250 hours total time in airplanes and a commercial MEL license. Today the mins are 1000 turbine part 121 PIC and some are considering increasing it to jet only and 2000 hours of PIC. Keep in mind of course that these are just the minimums to have your application accepted and read. The actual hiring amounts are much higher.

Another big change in the last 20 years is the new hire age at the majors. In the 60's it was common to get hired at 23. by the 70's and 80's 30 years of age was an older new hire. Just before 9-11 the average age was 37. Now have heard that it is hovering around 40. If they up the retirement age to 65 then you will see the average new hire age at 45. The increasing experience requirements and advancing average age of new hires at the airlines are a direct result of a flooded and growing pilot supply.

SkyHigh

preludespeeder

I have one question for you skyhigh, if there are so many career pilots out there looking for jobs, why are the good regionals lowering their mins so much and still worried that they may not get enough pilots to fill the slots they need to fill. Just for the record, American Eagle is hiring 700+, express jet is hiring 300+, skywest is hiring 400+, mesa is hiring, ASA is hiring, AWAC is hiring. In the majors/legacy CO is hiring, Delta is hiring from the outside, American should be hiring by 2008, Southwest is hiring more. I seem to not understand why you still think the industry is in a down turn. To me the actual evidence that is happening now, not two years ago, shows quite a different picture.

Baradium

Not quoted: I like how you keep saying "even if you take half my estimate." If I don't agree your estimate has any bearing, half of it doesn't either.


As far as mins and hire ages, seems to me they are going down now, not up.

SkyHigh

Those regional jobs are what the majors use to be. It is the old bait and switch. Every RJ takes the place of what use to be filled by a 737. As we all know thousands flock to the regionals and then mysteriously leave and go someplace else to create the void for the next victim. The problem is that they are not going to the majors since they are not hiring in mass. The answer is that after a few years of enslavement regional airline pilots learn the hard way everything that Skyhigh has been preaching these last few years. It is no fun to be a poor working regional airline pilot. Today even a RJ captain isn't really a big deal anymore, there are thousands of them. Once the reality sets in that they have a slim chance at getting one of the coveted jobs and they have gotten a belly full of endless nights at the Holiday Inn they quit and get a real job.

I have never said that the industry is in a down turn. The airline industry will do fine. They will have lots of planes that need pilots. What my point is that the pay and working conditions for airline pilots has been on a downhill slide for the last 20 years and it is never going to come back, so it is the situation for the pilots that is in decline. In fact in the near future it will get even easier to become a regional airline pilot. The real trick is to convert your regional experience into a good, family supporting, job at the majors. Every year there are fewer good airline jobs and more of the indentured servitude variety.

Another advantage for the regionals is to hire them as young and inexperienced as possible so it takes even longer for them to reach a point where they can either leave for another job or grow up enough to walk away. And lastly the big reason why the regionals have to scrape the bottom of the barrel for pilots is because fully grown up adults and self respecting pilots with experience would not accept the jobs that are offered at the regionals.

Tom Goodman posted a link to an article earlier in this thread on how Delta pilots are passing up recalls in order to remain at their Real Estate agent jobs. Though that is pathetic testament on the state of conditions for pilots at the majors you also have to ask yourself "if flying for a regional is so great then why didn't more furloughed pilots choose Skywest over becoming a salesman"?




SkyHigh

SkyHigh

I can't help it of you reject the facts. Why not go and look it up yourself? Send an email to the FAA and ask them how many new licences are created every year and in what categories. They only post how many current pilots there are. The rest of the picture is more interesting. Get an aviation college guide and count up how many programs there are.

Here is one that even you should accept. In December of 2005 there were 262,606 total Commercial and ATP rated pilots with current medicals. If each one could expect an average career of 30 years then 8754 professional grade pilots are made each year. In an average year around 2200 pilots are needed at the majors to fill the retirement vacancies. That leaves a one in 3.98 chance of making it to the majors.

Of course the real odds are much longer.

SkyHigh

Baradium

Since when did these become *facts* here? You're interpolating and making assumptions. I know a lot of commercial and atp rated pilots with medicals who have retired or got ratings just for insurance or for the challenge and have no intention of being commercial airlines pilots. A lot of ATC students get their commercial license for the experience. A lot of private pilots get them for insurance. Not all those guys are looking for jobs.

I don't see any pilots at my company "giving up." But I see plenty of them making steps up the ladder.

By the way, I graduated from a college aviation program just about a year ago. Getting to the regionals seems to be the big attrition point for people who are actually going for flying jobs.

Also keep in mind that the military now encourages its pilots to get civilian ratings and many of them are going in already having some ratings. For example, a friend of mine in the Navy went in with her Commercial Multiengine Land and went into helicopters. Before she finished the Naval rotary wing training now they had her take the FAA written tests and all she had to do was opt in to be given her civilian ratings after completion. With the current 10 year minimum commitments, many military pilots are tending towards going for the 20 year carreer so they get a military retirement.

It's not all milk and honey etc... but it's not like it's a lost hope either. Besides, even if the odds were 1 in 4 (I still don't agree with that), I think those odds are worth going for to fulfill your dreams. I'd rather be poor and a pilot than a rich accountant. Flying is what I want to do, and that's the same for a lot of people. There are more important things than money.

But on the money note, you might like this video...

So you want to be a regional airline pilot?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RayMaswju1A

SkyHigh

Thank you !! I did enjoy that. I will keep up my research and hopefully soon be able to provide more data for you.

SkyHigh