Addiction
01-08-2007, 06:35 AM
#191
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Stripes
Personally I'd rather be a FO (SIC) making $150/hr than a CAPT making $95/hr. More stripes don't equate to more quality of life.
If you are talking about being a CAPT to get that all too important PIC Jet time in order to move on..........I agree. If you look at the FDX seniority system our JR 727 Capts have are over 3/4 the way down the overall seniority list (3900 out of 4800 total). Our wide body Capt are at the 65%.
Many FO could have held CAPT years ago but choose to put quality of life ahead of money.........imagine that, what a concept.
If you are talking about being a CAPT to get that all too important PIC Jet time in order to move on..........I agree. If you look at the FDX seniority system our JR 727 Capts have are over 3/4 the way down the overall seniority list (3900 out of 4800 total). Our wide body Capt are at the 65%.
Many FO could have held CAPT years ago but choose to put quality of life ahead of money.........imagine that, what a concept.
SkyHigh
01-08-2007, 06:38 AM
#192
Gets Weekends Off
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01-08-2007, 06:48 AM
#193
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An Unbalanced Life
Addict:
a person who is addicted to an activity, habit, or substance: a drug addict.
American Psychological Association (APA):
addict. (n.d.). Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Retrieved January 08, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/addict
Modern Language Association (MLA):
We have returned to the origins of this thread. Success in aviation requires complete and total commitment in order to advance. Sometimes there is a place for an outside life however mostly there is not. The relentless lust for flight, and for success as a pilot, has the ability to consume all other possibilities and the addicted are usually unaware of what has been lost until it is too late.
Few other career choices demand as much. The afflicted make choices and take actions that would seem to be counter productive to a normal balanced and happy life. Perhaps they are destined to this fate? Natural selection might be using the allure of aviation to cull those unfit for a prosperous place in society.
Whatever the reason the afflicted become invested to an unnatural and unhealthy degree. In the end this is only a job and a mediocre one at that.
Skyhigh
a person who is addicted to an activity, habit, or substance: a drug addict.
American Psychological Association (APA):
addict. (n.d.). Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Retrieved January 08, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/addict
Modern Language Association (MLA):
We have returned to the origins of this thread. Success in aviation requires complete and total commitment in order to advance. Sometimes there is a place for an outside life however mostly there is not. The relentless lust for flight, and for success as a pilot, has the ability to consume all other possibilities and the addicted are usually unaware of what has been lost until it is too late.
Few other career choices demand as much. The afflicted make choices and take actions that would seem to be counter productive to a normal balanced and happy life. Perhaps they are destined to this fate? Natural selection might be using the allure of aviation to cull those unfit for a prosperous place in society.
Whatever the reason the afflicted become invested to an unnatural and unhealthy degree. In the end this is only a job and a mediocre one at that.
Skyhigh
01-08-2007, 06:50 AM
#194
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Joined APC: May 2005
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01-08-2007, 08:55 AM
#195
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 585
Too many think happiness and desire for something better are mutually exclusive goals. Then when they get that something better they look back and realize it was the journey that was most important all along.
One can be happy and content while plotting the next career move or on downwind with the fourth student of the day doing touch-n-gos.
No hidden ghosts, $20,000 for the first few years really sucks, depending on where you live. But one has control over staying at that rate or picking up overtime or other such things to make the initial low rate worthwhile.
I know first officers that are check airmen, logging PIC time while sitting right seat. Granted, every single one of them I know are or were DPEs before stepping into the airlines. Three have stepped off flying the line to hold greater responsibilities in the training departments.
Others are working in other fields while flying the line and some, leave the job at work, go home, and do something completely unrelated to their day job.
And some spend all of their free time whining on message boards...
One can be happy and content while plotting the next career move or on downwind with the fourth student of the day doing touch-n-gos.
No hidden ghosts, $20,000 for the first few years really sucks, depending on where you live. But one has control over staying at that rate or picking up overtime or other such things to make the initial low rate worthwhile.
I know first officers that are check airmen, logging PIC time while sitting right seat. Granted, every single one of them I know are or were DPEs before stepping into the airlines. Three have stepped off flying the line to hold greater responsibilities in the training departments.
Others are working in other fields while flying the line and some, leave the job at work, go home, and do something completely unrelated to their day job.
And some spend all of their free time whining on message boards...
01-08-2007, 11:47 PM
#196
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Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 47
Addict:
a person who is addicted to an activity, habit, or substance: a drug addict.
American Psychological Association (APA):
addict. (n.d.). Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Retrieved January 08, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/addict
Modern Language Association (MLA):
We have returned to the origins of this thread. Success in aviation requires complete and total commitment in order to advance. Sometimes there is a place for an outside life however mostly there is not. The relentless lust for flight, and for success as a pilot, has the ability to consume all other possibilities and the addicted are usually unaware of what has been lost until it is too late.
Few other career choices demand as much. The afflicted make choices and take actions that would seem to be counter productive to a normal balanced and happy life. Perhaps they are destined to this fate? Natural selection might be using the allure of aviation to cull those unfit for a prosperous place in society.
Whatever the reason the afflicted become invested to an unnatural and unhealthy degree. In the end this is only a job and a mediocre one at that.
Skyhigh
a person who is addicted to an activity, habit, or substance: a drug addict.
American Psychological Association (APA):
addict. (n.d.). Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Retrieved January 08, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/addict
Modern Language Association (MLA):
We have returned to the origins of this thread. Success in aviation requires complete and total commitment in order to advance. Sometimes there is a place for an outside life however mostly there is not. The relentless lust for flight, and for success as a pilot, has the ability to consume all other possibilities and the addicted are usually unaware of what has been lost until it is too late.
Few other career choices demand as much. The afflicted make choices and take actions that would seem to be counter productive to a normal balanced and happy life. Perhaps they are destined to this fate? Natural selection might be using the allure of aviation to cull those unfit for a prosperous place in society.
Whatever the reason the afflicted become invested to an unnatural and unhealthy degree. In the end this is only a job and a mediocre one at that.
Skyhigh
Skyhigh, the addiction argument is *******ing ridiculous. So your saying that if I am addicted to exercise it's a bad thing? Addiction is a two way street. To compare a job like flying or any job for that matter and addiction to drugs is just plain dumb, even you have to admit it's a stretch. Are there similarities? Both positive and negative maybe. But everyone universally accepts that drug/smoking addiction is bad. I can't light up a cigarette and tell myself, you know if I keep smoking long enough it will give me great health. It will lead to the fountain of youth and nothing bad will ever happen to me. Not one person who smokes thinks like that. However, a pilot can take up flying and think to himself, you know if I work hard and continue giving every thing I can to aviation, maybe one day I will have a decent career. Maybe I won't, but there is a chance. EVERYONE agrees, that if you pick up a crack pipe or a cigarette, NOTHING good can come from it. Even those addicted will agree. Ask me how I know. I work with about 600 drug addicts every time I go to work. I know what crack/meth/coke does to them.
And quit trying to argue the numbers. I have been around flying my whole life (31 years). It's not as bleak as you make it sound. Is it hard? Your damn right it is. Is it worth it? That is up to the individual trying. To ME it's worth it. To YOU it wasn't. Life is more then a paycheck.
And natural selection?? WTF? Come on, what about using natural selection to lure those into a construction field so they fall off a roof? See it's based on just as much scientific fact.
If you bring up the drug/smoking argument again, I have just about lost all respect for your arguments. And as of now I respect you greatly for making the decisions you have to make your life a happy one.
P R
01-10-2007, 05:06 AM
#197
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Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Addiction
Skyhigh, the addiction argument is *******ing ridiculous. So your saying that if I am addicted to exercise it's a bad thing? Addiction is a two way street. To compare a job like flying or any job for that matter and addiction to drugs is just plain dumb, even you have to admit it's a stretch. Are there similarities? Both positive and negative maybe. But everyone universally accepts that drug/smoking addiction is bad. I can't light up a cigarette and tell myself, you know if I keep smoking long enough it will give me great health. It will lead to the fountain of youth and nothing bad will ever happen to me. Not one person who smokes thinks like that. However, a pilot can take up flying and think to himself, you know if I work hard and continue giving every thing I can to aviation, maybe one day I will have a decent career. Maybe I won't, but there is a chance. EVERYONE agrees, that if you pick up a crack pipe or a cigarette, NOTHING good can come from it. Even those addicted will agree. Ask me how I know. I work with about 600 drug addicts every time I go to work. I know what crack/meth/coke does to them.
And quit trying to argue the numbers. I have been around flying my whole life (31 years). It's not as bleak as you make it sound. Is it hard? Your damn right it is. Is it worth it? That is up to the individual trying. To ME it's worth it. To YOU it wasn't. Life is more then a paycheck.
And natural selection?? WTF? Come on, what about using natural selection to lure those into a construction field so they fall off a roof? See it's based on just as much scientific fact.
If you bring up the drug/smoking argument again, I have just about lost all respect for your arguments. And as of now I respect you greatly for making the decisions you have to make your life a happy one.
P R
And quit trying to argue the numbers. I have been around flying my whole life (31 years). It's not as bleak as you make it sound. Is it hard? Your damn right it is. Is it worth it? That is up to the individual trying. To ME it's worth it. To YOU it wasn't. Life is more then a paycheck.
And natural selection?? WTF? Come on, what about using natural selection to lure those into a construction field so they fall off a roof? See it's based on just as much scientific fact.
If you bring up the drug/smoking argument again, I have just about lost all respect for your arguments. And as of now I respect you greatly for making the decisions you have to make your life a happy one.
P R
My point is that I have seen the lust for aviation lure people into making decisions that are not in their own best interest. The long term results can be that of a destructive nature. To me it comes from a place of addiction. As defined by the dictionary a person can be addicted to an "activity", therefore I included the line from the dictionary in my post.
In my career I have watched it tear families up, leave the afflicted broke and alone and frequently I have seem it kill people. I have participated in interventions, of sort, where a group of my colleagues have attempted to divert a pilot from a path of destruction to no avail. Perhaps you haven't witnessed it yet however, it does not mean that it doesnt exist. This entire thread was started by a conversation I had with a 47 year old guy who was preparing to throw the rest of his work life away on aviation because he "couldn't imagine doing anything else". In his case the results will be catastrophic and self destructive. He is too old and will be spending his life savings on the effort. What else would you call an activity that leaves its victims broke, without any self esteem and desperate for opportunities to sacrifice more? I call it an addiction. I was one myself.
I wouldn't consider you as an addict. In fact I think that there is some hope for you. In your 31 years your better judgement has kept you in a job you hate because somewhere in your subconsciousness a part of you realises how foolish it is and likes having money to buy things with. You might even find it difficult to pull the plug on you current occupation. Most others couldn't resist the urge and would have gotten a huge loan and left a secure position many years prior.
I think the term "Addict" is very accurate and properly describes most who pursue an activity that has long term negative effects upon its participants. I remember in my high school health class the teacher when discussing illegal drug use claimed that no one would purse an activity unless they were getting some kind of short term benefit from it. Drugs are "fun" and so in the short term they make you feel good. Over time the results of continued use become obvious.
I use dollars and cents because it is easy to compare. What is a more accurate statement would be to say that overall pilots do not prosper in life when compared to other career choices. People are not stupid, they gain a lot from their boring 9 to 5 jobs. Once you start on the path to a full time aviation career over time you will notice a reduction in financial momentum and the decay of friends, family and assets. If you ever desire to have a stable family life and the accumulation of the better things then you had better be prepared to sacrifice for them.
Skyhigh
01-10-2007, 05:30 PM
#199
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Posts: 47
Skyhigh,
We're going to have to agree to disagree. Flying is not the only job that ruins relationships, drives people to do stupid things or kills people. Maybe because flying is the only job you have seen this happen, you lack perception of how other careers really are.
I was in the Air Force for four years. The year I spent in Korea alone, I saw five of the guys in my shop get divorced. And that's not unheard of in the military. I have worked in law enforcement for the last eight years. I have known 4 people that got divorced, me included. I have also seen six of my friends/co-workers leave this career for one completely outside of Law Enforcement. I also knew of at least 4 I knew personally die in military realated accidents while I was either in Kuwait or Korea. And three people have died in the line of duty on my department in my last eight years in Law Enforcement. During this same twelve year period I have known one person who died in an airplane. And two that got out of aviation because they said it wasn't for them.
So maybe my aviation experince is limited. However I am not happy in Law Enforcement, and never had been. For now the only thing that I think will make me and many others (like your friend) happy is flying. If it turns out it doesn't work out, fine, I will have no regrets. But I have a feeling it will. Like I have said many times, life is more then just a pay check. But your right, I am in a position to wait for some thing a little better to come along, while still building time and experince.
P R
We're going to have to agree to disagree. Flying is not the only job that ruins relationships, drives people to do stupid things or kills people. Maybe because flying is the only job you have seen this happen, you lack perception of how other careers really are.
I was in the Air Force for four years. The year I spent in Korea alone, I saw five of the guys in my shop get divorced. And that's not unheard of in the military. I have worked in law enforcement for the last eight years. I have known 4 people that got divorced, me included. I have also seen six of my friends/co-workers leave this career for one completely outside of Law Enforcement. I also knew of at least 4 I knew personally die in military realated accidents while I was either in Kuwait or Korea. And three people have died in the line of duty on my department in my last eight years in Law Enforcement. During this same twelve year period I have known one person who died in an airplane. And two that got out of aviation because they said it wasn't for them.
So maybe my aviation experince is limited. However I am not happy in Law Enforcement, and never had been. For now the only thing that I think will make me and many others (like your friend) happy is flying. If it turns out it doesn't work out, fine, I will have no regrets. But I have a feeling it will. Like I have said many times, life is more then just a pay check. But your right, I am in a position to wait for some thing a little better to come along, while still building time and experince.
P R
01-11-2007, 05:21 AM
#200
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Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Pr
Skyhigh,
We're going to have to agree to disagree. Flying is not the only job that ruins relationships, drives people to do stupid things or kills people. Maybe because flying is the only job you have seen this happen, you lack perception of how other careers really are.
I was in the Air Force for four years. The year I spent in Korea alone, I saw five of the guys in my shop get divorced. And that's not unheard of in the military. I have worked in law enforcement for the last eight years. I have known 4 people that got divorced, me included. I have also seen six of my friends/co-workers leave this career for one completely outside of Law Enforcement. I also knew of at least 4 I knew personally die in military realated accidents while I was either in Kuwait or Korea. And three people have died in the line of duty on my department in my last eight years in Law Enforcement. During this same twelve year period I have known one person who died in an airplane. And two that got out of aviation because they said it wasn't for them.
So maybe my aviation experince is limited. However I am not happy in Law Enforcement, and never had been. For now the only thing that I think will make me and many others (like your friend) happy is flying. If it turns out it doesn't work out, fine, I will have no regrets. But I have a feeling it will. Like I have said many times, life is more then just a pay check. But your right, I am in a position to wait for some thing a little better to come along, while still building time and experince.
P R
We're going to have to agree to disagree. Flying is not the only job that ruins relationships, drives people to do stupid things or kills people. Maybe because flying is the only job you have seen this happen, you lack perception of how other careers really are.
I was in the Air Force for four years. The year I spent in Korea alone, I saw five of the guys in my shop get divorced. And that's not unheard of in the military. I have worked in law enforcement for the last eight years. I have known 4 people that got divorced, me included. I have also seen six of my friends/co-workers leave this career for one completely outside of Law Enforcement. I also knew of at least 4 I knew personally die in military realated accidents while I was either in Kuwait or Korea. And three people have died in the line of duty on my department in my last eight years in Law Enforcement. During this same twelve year period I have known one person who died in an airplane. And two that got out of aviation because they said it wasn't for them.
So maybe my aviation experince is limited. However I am not happy in Law Enforcement, and never had been. For now the only thing that I think will make me and many others (like your friend) happy is flying. If it turns out it doesn't work out, fine, I will have no regrets. But I have a feeling it will. Like I have said many times, life is more then just a pay check. But your right, I am in a position to wait for some thing a little better to come along, while still building time and experince.
P R
PR,
I honestly mean no harm. My aim is to help. The opinions I share have come from my own experiences and research. I hope you believe me when I say that I wish things were different and that everyone had the ability to find a place in aviation where they were wanted, treated well and were fairly compensated.
I love flying but believe that it takes much more than it gives. Pay and working conditions for pilots will continue to decline. General aviation is fading away. Though I still miss flying very much everyday since I have been away from it my life has improved greatly.
SkyHigh
