Addiction
01-01-2007, 09:37 PM
#131
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Costs
Sky High, why is someone gonna pay 150000k for college when you go can to a college that cost around 45000k for a four year degree. I have a friend that was accepted to a college under their engineering program and that was gonna cost him 7000 a year in tuition. Also do not try to add the cost of living into that because even if he didn't go to the school you still have to pay out money to live. You really need to look at the real cost of things that people are paying for today, not the rich kids that have parents who can afford to pay that much for college.
A portion of my business is in providing housing for college students, so I have a good bearing on what the costs are. You might only write checks for 45K but your bank account will be over a hundred thousand lighter when you are done. I learned all that from two years of accounting while in college.
SkyHigh
SkyHigh
01-01-2007, 09:45 PM
#132
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Hey
I see what your saying from A business sense Skyhigh, but there are just some things in this world that you can't put a monetery value on.
I will hopefully be flying full time very soon. I am in a weird career situation. As I posted before, I am 31, work in a prison making very good money. I hate everday I have to go to work. I get 15 days off a month and work twelve hour shifts. So I have spent about the last eight years or so aquiring my ratings up through Comm, Multi, Inst. I have owned my own small ariplane and been building hours the long way. Paying for it. I know should have sucked it up and done the CFI thing. But it was a little more cost effective to not take a 50,000 dollar a year pay cut. I guess either way I have paid for it. And recently I have been flying a part 91 learjet part time.
I have been divorced about 3 years. Nothing crazy happened we were both unhappy and went our seperate ways. I do not have any kids, so it's basiclly just me. Part of my unhappiness is due inpart to my complete hatered of my current job, and that had a direct effect on my relationship with my ex.
I do not have any delusions of the state this career is in or is heading. But I do know this is something I am happy doing. I can give this career a solid 8-10 year shot. If it doesn't work out, I have plenty to fall back on. I am not wealthy, but I do have plenty of training in several diffrent fields. I also so have the afore mentioned (by Skyhigh in previous posts) contacts.
Will I get lucky? Only time will tell. But I am more then happy to role the dice, then sitting around rotting from the inside out in this crappy place.
P R
I will hopefully be flying full time very soon. I am in a weird career situation. As I posted before, I am 31, work in a prison making very good money. I hate everday I have to go to work. I get 15 days off a month and work twelve hour shifts. So I have spent about the last eight years or so aquiring my ratings up through Comm, Multi, Inst. I have owned my own small ariplane and been building hours the long way. Paying for it. I know should have sucked it up and done the CFI thing. But it was a little more cost effective to not take a 50,000 dollar a year pay cut. I guess either way I have paid for it. And recently I have been flying a part 91 learjet part time.
I have been divorced about 3 years. Nothing crazy happened we were both unhappy and went our seperate ways. I do not have any kids, so it's basiclly just me. Part of my unhappiness is due inpart to my complete hatered of my current job, and that had a direct effect on my relationship with my ex.
I do not have any delusions of the state this career is in or is heading. But I do know this is something I am happy doing. I can give this career a solid 8-10 year shot. If it doesn't work out, I have plenty to fall back on. I am not wealthy, but I do have plenty of training in several diffrent fields. I also so have the afore mentioned (by Skyhigh in previous posts) contacts.
Will I get lucky? Only time will tell. But I am more then happy to role the dice, then sitting around rotting from the inside out in this crappy place.
P R
I am truly sorry that you have had a ruff time the last few years. I am also sorry that you hate your job. I didn't hate flying but I did hate what it did to me and my life. I also hate that it killed my friends. You know what making real money is like. Once you have spent a few years as a full time pilot and watched as your bank accounts shrink down to nothing you might catch a glimpse of what I am referring to.
Skyhigh
01-02-2007, 02:17 AM
#133
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 47
Thanks for the kind words. I am not in too dire a spot. I just need a change, for better or worse. I need to scratch an itch, for a while at least. And hopefully my bank account won't shrink too much .
I've only been to one aviation funeral in 31 years of being around it (my Dad was a flight insturctor when I was born). But I have lost friends to motorcycles, cars, drug overdoses and heart attacks.
Why is it if you don't "hate" flying, did you stop flying your own airplane. Some of the best times I have had have been in my little Stinson. Even if things don't work professionally, I will always have it.
P R
.I've only been to one aviation funeral in 31 years of being around it (my Dad was a flight insturctor when I was born). But I have lost friends to motorcycles, cars, drug overdoses and heart attacks.
Why is it if you don't "hate" flying, did you stop flying your own airplane. Some of the best times I have had have been in my little Stinson. Even if things don't work professionally, I will always have it.
P R
01-02-2007, 04:36 AM
#134
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Plane
Thanks for the kind words. I am not in too dire a spot. I just need a change, for better or worse. I need to scratch an itch, for a while at least. And hopefully my bank account won't shrink too much .
I've only been to one aviation funeral in 31 years of being around it (my Dad was a flight insturctor when I was born). But I have lost friends to motorcycles, cars, drug overdoses and heart attacks.
Why is it if you don't "hate" flying, did you stop flying your own airplane. Some of the best times I have had have been in my little Stinson. Even if things don't work professionally, I will always have it.
P R
.I've only been to one aviation funeral in 31 years of being around it (my Dad was a flight insturctor when I was born). But I have lost friends to motorcycles, cars, drug overdoses and heart attacks.
Why is it if you don't "hate" flying, did you stop flying your own airplane. Some of the best times I have had have been in my little Stinson. Even if things don't work professionally, I will always have it.
P R
My little plane reminds me of loss and hardship. In addition I don't know what to think about flying as a hobby. Through my entire life it has always been a purpose other than recreation. My career took me from instructing through Alaskan Bush pilot, forest service contract pilot, corporate and jet charter, air ambulance and the airlines. Touch and go's don't hold the same appeal as they once did.
SKyHigh
01-02-2007, 08:36 AM
#135
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: 737 Right
Posts: 1,385
Sky, you're an idiot and here's why:
Your $140-150,000 is bull and you know it. Even by your math the vast majority of that sum is opportunity cost of not working full time while in college. This is in no way specific to a flying career and you could use it to argue against ANY career that requires a degree. I doubt that your math is so bad that you don't already know this.
I dont' know about you but I worked the entire time I was in college and many other people do too. So I have to question your "opportunity cost" number.
My son is currently in flying school and will owe nowhere near half that amount when he is finished with school. He might have something like $40,000 when finished. His school is associated with a major Regional airline that essentially guarantees employment upon graduation.
SWA is hiring at record levels and has been for a year. I don't think the mins are going up. I personally know several who have been hired without a type in the last year. Yes, a type is still required before training starts but 7k is a drop in the bucket at that point.
You know you are stretching the math to fit your argument. Get real.
Your $140-150,000 is bull and you know it. Even by your math the vast majority of that sum is opportunity cost of not working full time while in college. This is in no way specific to a flying career and you could use it to argue against ANY career that requires a degree. I doubt that your math is so bad that you don't already know this.
I dont' know about you but I worked the entire time I was in college and many other people do too. So I have to question your "opportunity cost" number.
My son is currently in flying school and will owe nowhere near half that amount when he is finished with school. He might have something like $40,000 when finished. His school is associated with a major Regional airline that essentially guarantees employment upon graduation.
SWA is hiring at record levels and has been for a year. I don't think the mins are going up. I personally know several who have been hired without a type in the last year. Yes, a type is still required before training starts but 7k is a drop in the bucket at that point.
You know you are stretching the math to fit your argument. Get real.
01-02-2007, 08:51 AM
#136
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: 737 Right
Posts: 1,385
The price of college goes far beyond the simple amount of tuition. If you really are to understand the actual cost then you need to add in, tuition, books, room and board, lost wages and the opportunity cost of what you could have been doing with that four years. In your case I seem to remember that you had a job that paid 40K. Had you left that job to go to college for four years then you would have lost 160,000 in wages and had to provide for your own health benefits.
A portion of my business is in providing housing for college students, so I have a good bearing on what the costs are. You might only write checks for 45K but your bank account will be over a hundred thousand lighter when you are done. I learned all that from two years of accounting while in college.
A portion of my business is in providing housing for college students, so I have a good bearing on what the costs are. You might only write checks for 45K but your bank account will be over a hundred thousand lighter when you are done. I learned all that from two years of accounting while in college.
You cannot compare todays college rates with todays pay rates. Pay WILL go up in real dollars, guaranteed. For example, as a LtCol in the USAF today, I make more than twice what my father made as an LtCol when I was in college. Adjusted for inflation, LtCol's don't make much more today than they did then, yet my income seems way higher. Looking back, I thought college was expensive then but based on my income today, it's a pittance.
So while you may generate 40k in loans today, in 15 years, even the RJ capt who makes $89,000 will be making $150,000 then even if his pay increases only 3.5% a year.
During that 15 years, the FAA is forcasting a shortage of pilots in the US and internationally, the shortage is far worse.
Also, you can't factor in room and board into the cost of college. Were you planning on going homeless and not eating for four years? Don't be an idiot! You're going to need food and lodging whether you stay undeducated or not.
Check your numbers dude, your math has holes you could fly an airplane through.
Last edited by 1Seat 1Engine; 01-02-2007 at 08:52 AM. Reason: spelling
01-02-2007, 09:34 AM
#137
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: XJT F/O
Posts: 144
Wow skyhigh, given your current argument, I guess I should not even go to college because it cost so much money and and I am gonna lose so much opportunity while I am in school. Oh yeah just to let you know I went to school and worked my same job, so I didn't lose the 160k you are trying to claim.
01-02-2007, 10:40 AM
#138
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 47
An E-1 base pay is only $1178 per mo. An E-1 might be able to save most (certainly not "every penny") of his pay IF he stays single, lives on base and eats only at the chow hall. This cannot continue for a 15 year career. When you become an NCO they make you move out of the dorms and start cooking for yourself/
Of course, aboard an aircraft carrier, there isn't much choice, regardless of rank.
01-02-2007, 10:59 AM
#139
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Methods
Is is easy to pick apart my methodology over a simple Internet forum. Short of hiring an accountant and spending the next three weeks doing research and writing a long dissertation my logic, however is sound. You guys also have the responsibility of proving me wrong. Simple name calling and broad statements will not suffice.
No matter how many layers of denial you wish to smother the truth with it is undeniable that after investing years in training and education you will be starting a career from a huge deficit. As such if the profession is not to slip into the realm of hobby/masochist job like artist, musician or street performer then it must be able to repay the true cost of everything it took to get there.
A simple way to examine by comparison is to use the Army private since it is a choice that is available to almost everyone. If you are to add up everything that is gained by a career against what a pilot must go through after 15 years it is undeniable that the pilot in spite of all the extra sacrifices will be the lessor of the two.
My numbers are not "bull" it really does cost money to go to college. In my home town state university costs of tuition and books for four years of college is $24,648. Add to that around $48,000 for four years of room and board plus any additional semesters and the lost income they could have spent as a worker and you get right up to 150K easily even before considering the flight training.
Sure other career choices have similar sacrifices. However if they are themselves to be considered as viable they must pass a similar acid test. Most college degrees do not make it. Currently there is a trend that more women are attending college than men. The reason for the change is that the men have learned that they can earn more money and have a better life as skilled labor.
SkyHigh
No matter how many layers of denial you wish to smother the truth with it is undeniable that after investing years in training and education you will be starting a career from a huge deficit. As such if the profession is not to slip into the realm of hobby/masochist job like artist, musician or street performer then it must be able to repay the true cost of everything it took to get there.
A simple way to examine by comparison is to use the Army private since it is a choice that is available to almost everyone. If you are to add up everything that is gained by a career against what a pilot must go through after 15 years it is undeniable that the pilot in spite of all the extra sacrifices will be the lessor of the two.
My numbers are not "bull" it really does cost money to go to college. In my home town state university costs of tuition and books for four years of college is $24,648. Add to that around $48,000 for four years of room and board plus any additional semesters and the lost income they could have spent as a worker and you get right up to 150K easily even before considering the flight training.
Sure other career choices have similar sacrifices. However if they are themselves to be considered as viable they must pass a similar acid test. Most college degrees do not make it. Currently there is a trend that more women are attending college than men. The reason for the change is that the men have learned that they can earn more money and have a better life as skilled labor.
SkyHigh
01-02-2007, 11:33 AM
#140
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Flight School
Wow skyhigh, given your current argument, I guess I should not even go to college because it cost so much money and and I am gonna lose so much opportunity while I am in school. Oh yeah just to let you know I went to school and worked my same job, so I didn't lose the 160k you are trying to claim.
In case you haven't gone to college yet then you got a most of the hill yet to climb.
I can't remember the details of your situation but I do remember that you have a family and had a house in AZ. In your case you should take into consideration the loss of your family home since if I recall you sold it to fund flight training and living expenses. Though I don't live in AZ I saw a story in the news recently that named AZ as the fastest growing state in the union. If that is the case I can't imagine that you will ever be able to replace your home as a working pilot. In time you will regret selling your home if you don't already.
SKyHigh
