AZFlyer

The 2nd Amendment doesn't allow me to do anything. It reaffirms a natural right to self-defense with the use of arms. I'm surprised at all by this sentiment. You probably believe that the government grants us our rights. I honestly want you to tell me if I'm wrong on this, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have not read the Constitution, The Bill of Rights, The Declaration of Independence, The Federalist Papers, the Anti-Federalist papers, etc. Have you? I digress...

I do.
Spoken like the true willful victim that you are. In other words, we gun owners are all murderers lying in wait, is that it? Why not just arrest me now?

You really are trying to look like an idiot now. Your point here is so ridiculous that I'm struggling to find a simple way of explaining to you that choosing to own and carry a gun is not a hobby or means of passing the time, I mean...this is beyond stupid.

You're catching on now.


This is laughable. Again projecting your own self-inadequacies on others. I've already explained to you why I carry a gun. It is a means of self-defense. If that answer is not deep enough for you, then everything else won't get through to you. I was never afraid before owning and carrying and I'm not now. Why else would you wear seat-belts in a car? It provides protection in an accident. Why do I carry a gun? Because it can be used to stop an attacker committing a crime against me and family. Again, you are a willful victim.


Wait a minute! First you said I was one of the good guys...and that I separate myself from the gun nut jobs! Now I'm back to being one of them? LOL! So which is it? And PLEASE answer this with clear and concise articulable facts: What is a gun nut job?

Is it anyone who owns a gun? Is it anyone who carries a gun? Is it anyone who owns, say, two guns? What is it? I see anti-gun people throw the term 'gun nuts' and 'gun nut jobs' around all the time...but I still haven't gotten a clear answer on what that is.

You're talking in circles. You've repeatedly asked this in some form or another and it has been repeatedly answered for you. You are stuck on 'necessity'. You are so ignorant to what you talk about that you honestly believe the remaining 1/3 of the country doesn't live happy and fearless lives. Please refute that point with concise points if you disagree. It is such a blatant logical fallacy to make statements like that that I have to wonder if you're just pulling my leg with all of this nonsense.

It is simple really. I, unlike you, recognize, as I've stated to you already (and you apparently just keep asking the questions hoping you'll here what you want), that I, and I alone, am responsible for my well-being. It isn't about fear. It is about taking personal responsibility and wanting to mitigate the chances of being a victim if that day ever comes.

Please answer this with clear and articulate thoughts: What is your plan of action, actual tangible steps you would take, if you found yourself with an intruder in your bedroom at night with obvious and clear intent to cause your grievous bodily harm? What would you do if approached by a man with a knife while putting gas into your car?

If your answer only involves calling the police and waiting for them to rescue you...well, good luck with that.

I'd carry whatever defensive weapon would be most capable for the job. What would YOU do? Call the police?

Many gun owners use it as their first line of defense? CITE YOUR SOURCES FOR THAT.
That is one of your biggest problems...you and those like you see a couple of incidents in the news and assign a disproportionate amount of concern and fear to an incident that you are incredibly unlikely to ever encounter in your life....and it leads you to MAKE UP facts. You're a liar. Cut and dry.

So, I'm going to do for you what you can't...I'm going to provide facts (that you won't accept because they don't jive with your preconceived narrative).

- Firearms are used up to 2.5 MILLION times annually in defensive situations (whether the gun was fired or not): Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Floriday State University
-
About 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person; about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person. The odds of a defensive gun user killing an innocent person are less than 1 in 26,000 despite American citizens using guns to prevent crimes almost 2,500,000 times every year. -
Shall Issue: The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws,C. Cramer, and D. Kopel,Independence Institute Issue Paper.


- People with concealed carry permits are:
• 5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses than the general public
• 13.5 times less likely to be arrested for non violent offenses than the general public.
An Analysis of the Arrest Rate of Texas Concealed Carry Handgun License Holders as Compared to the Arrest Rate of the Entire Texas Population, William E. Sturdevant, PE, September 11, 1999

And now, if you have the stomach for seeing pages upon pages of cold hard facts that completely refute everything you think you know about gun owners, I dare you to read this: http://gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/...6-2-screen.pdf


You seem to have a hard time reading and comprehending. I said I don't care if you exercise or don't exercise your right to firearms. It has no effect on me. What does bother me is your willingness to infringe upon the liberties of other law abiding citizens in the name of what you think is safety, when all you really want is to feel safe. You don't care if you are actually less safe as a result of increased gun control, you just like that it makes you feel good.

Why the quotations? Are you implying Bubba murdered is kid? What does this even mean?
Is that the same as how I'm not Trayvons mom, but we're all Trayvon's mom? So I'm responsible for someone elses actions? Are you serious?
The beauty of it all is that the rights of the individual trump the rights of the many in this country. Don't believe me? Read those old pieces of paper I mentioned the top of this post. I want to be free to buy guns and ammo, because it is my right as a free person in America. You on the other hand, invite control and limitation from the government. You don't seem to understand that the government cannot give you anything (at least not without taking it from someone else first). The government can only make you safer by removing your responsibility to keep you safe by mandating aspects of how you live your life. That isn't freedom. But, we are likely getting way over your head here with that discussion.

Yes it does. Because, again, the rights of the individual trump the rights of the many. This country is not a democracy. Until you've given a lawful reason to be limited in your rights (committing a crime/obviously mentally unfit), then Bubba is just as free as me to own what he wants.
I wish you would stop making things up. Have you noticed that the one of the biggest differences between you and most others on this forum, is that you're the only who is making arguments founded on assumptions, misinformation, prejudices, fear, and emotions?

Everyone else here has been able to provide actual facts and statistics to back up their position. We aren't giving you opinions, we're telling you how it is. Quite the opposite of you.

Really? Tell me more about why I own guns, since you can read my mind. I choose to 'occupy' my time with guns? What does that even mean? Again, you consistently fail to provide tangible rebuttals. I occupy my time with aviation, photography, movies, and my family. I make time to be a responsible firearm owner. I accepted that responsibility.

What does this even mean? Are you denying that you stand a possibility to be victimized by a violent criminal. You're trying to hold that against me for choosing to have a means of fighting back? Get your head out of the sand. Again, are you trying to show us all how uninformed you are and how oblivious you are to your own weak arguments? Are you implying that I'm actually not a good guy? Just come right out and say if thats what you believe! That I'm a bad guy and its only a matter of time until I crack and go on a rampage? Is that why despite there being 120 MILLION lawful firearm owners in this country, that there are only about 8,000 intentional firearm homicides annually? Do you have any idea what that percentage is? I'll do the math for you: 0.0000066% of all firearm owners commit intentional homicide with their guns annually. And the actual number is probably even smaller, given that out of those ~8000 intentional homicides with firearms, bout 75% of those are criminal on criminal (you can thank the war on drugs for that). As Jungle mentioned, absent a certain demographic, our crime rate in general would be astonishingly low.

You have assigned such an incredibly disproportionate importance to this number because you are the one that is terrified! The same reason why people are afraid of flying...because plane crashes are often horrific. You're reacting on emotion. As expected at this point.

Again, don't let facts get in the way of your agenda.

Cite your sources, otherwise you are just lying again.
GZ didn't do anything unlawful. Whether your definition of wrong includes your personal morals is irrelevant. If he had done something illegal, he would have been successfully prosecuted for it.
Someone did something stupid. Better place limitations on all the people who didn't do something stupid, right? Is that your solution?
Again, are you saying I'm a criminal in wait? Should I be charged with thought crimes a la Minority Report? Do you have knives in your kitchen? I hope you know the power you wield when you hold a knife and the transformation that grips your brain and causes you to become homicidal. You don't need knives. They scare me. See how silly that sounds? Thats you.

I hit the range on average once a week for an hour or two. I participate regularly in IDPA style defensive pistol competitions once or twice a month(these competitions are designed to provide defensive scenario based shooting challenges; moving; hiding; engaging, etc). I study in my free time. I practice more with my firearm in a week than most police officers do all year! And that isn't an exaggeration, nor is it uncommon. You make judgments on things that you have obviously ZERO experience in, but you're just so sure you know what you're talking about.
a weak and baseless emotional appeal. Pathetic.

SYG... even the name is conditioning. Stand Your Ground. Don't give up, don't back down. [/quote] Again, you're just making things up. Did you even bother to read the words of the law? I already gave it to you in a link earlier. You're continually showing that you're okay to argue from a position of ignorance and you don't mind that it makes you look like a fool. Do you know that in some states the law is referred to as 'No Duty to Retreat'?
If you had actually read the law, you would know that all it says that you are not legally obligated to try and retreat if you are in a place where you have a lawful right to be (your own home, for example).
Again making things up to support other stuff you made up. You aren't even trying, now.

Recall Wayne: The only thing to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy. So.... T. Martin should have had a gun? [/quote] Trayvon was anything but good.

Two guys like me? Irrelevant. If the other guy is just like me, he won't draw his firearm until it is imminent that the other person is causing or about to cause grievous bodily harm. That is something I would never do. Horrible argument.
You keep repeating questions but with a racial aspect. Why do you keep doing this? Do you think I'm racist? Be honest. I think you might be. You keep going there, as if you think my answer will be different. That is insulting.

This again? Do you understand basic economics? Supply and demand? Now my choice of self-defense is a pastime? My civil right is a pastime? You can't even keep your own story straight.

Again generalizing to the extreme. Do you not believe that there are gun owners who are single moms living in an urban environment and want to have the ability to protect themselves from a rapist and hence chose to exercise their right to do so? You're absurd. Absolutely absurd. You must see gun owners as nothing but old fat white guys.

Once again, you are projecting your own ignorance and inadequacies on me. If you knew anything about firearm safety, you would know that one of the four principle safety rules ingrained into everyones head is to know what you're shooting at and identify the backstop. But, the funniest part of your argument, is that you say this as if you have some sort of superior alternative to keeping your family safe. Do tell, what is it that will be keeping you safe when someone is already in your house, in your bedroom, or your childrens room? When seconds count, the police are only minutes away! You don't know anything about my attitude to gun safety and prepartions.

My wife and have a concrete safety plan in place in case someone breaks into our home while we're there. We know exactly what we will do, we have practiced it and have accepted responsibility for our own well-being.

Are you a pilot? I'm guessing you must be if you're here. I mean, do you practice in the sim for emergency procedures? Do you have your emergency procedures committed to memory? Why? You probably won't ever been in an emergency. You must be afraid of something if you do have them memorized and take steps to be prepared for an unlikely event.

I love that you insist that I don't live that way. You're unreal.

That is their choice, and I'm fine with it. That is the most ironic and hypocritical thing you've yet said, and you've laid out quite a few doozies. That is like the pot calling the kettle a n-.....well, I won't go there.

With most of that being criminal on criminal. You're right. That isn't on me.

mike734

Tool of the day. Guys who parse comments sentence by sentence and respond to each one. Who has that kind of time?

Atlas Shrugged

Are you calling him a tool for taking the time to answer each point thoroughly? Are you criticizing him for taking the effort to completely support his position?

That seems very unreasonable to me.

jungle

Someone articulate, intelligent and caring. Tools can't take the time to think.

mike734

I didn't actually read it! I nominate myself as tool of the day for nominating someone as tool of the day.

tsquare

I usually don't read those kinds of posts either, but AZ's post was well thought out and countered every stupid "point" the other guy made with logic and reason.

Kudos AZ!

RhinoPherret

AZ,

Arguing based on facts and common sense never works well against those that base their beliefs on catch phrases, news headlines, hearsay, ignorance of specifics, generalizations, personal biases.

You gave it your best. Similar to arguing against conspiracy theorists and believers in alien invaders.

I do not worry about being shot by a responsible gun owner in the slightest!

I DO WORRY about all those responsible citizens out there on the roadways using their vehicles as weapons of destruction in all manner possible to kill me or one of my family. They wield far more deadly force potential on a daily basis than gun owners can ever muster.

Snarge,

You might like to take a look at the national statistics on vehicle injury and death if you really want to worry about something in life that can affect you far more realistically than being shot by a gun.

mike734

Alright. I'll go read it but I have the feeling I'm going to have to read a bunch before and after for context. What's the subject again?

John Doe

Jungle,
Give up....
You can't fix Stupid

USMCFLYR

In two words?
Gun Rights.

Nothing will EVER satisfy an emotional argument.

If you are emotionally invested into the idea that 2+2 does NOT equal 4 then no about of repeating it will ever change your mind.