150 mpg VW Hybrid-Max Range 800 miles
03-06-2012, 06:54 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 295
It's not just about where we get our oil. In fact, our largest contributors are Canada and Mexico. Fact is, we have vested interest in keeping oil flowing to Europe and Asia who do get the majority of their oil from the Middle East. Like it or not, we have to play in a global economy. If Europe tanks, if Asia tanks, gues what? We'll feel the pain too. I'd love to give the finger to certian OPEC countries out there but the fact is they will stay relevant as long as fossil fuels do and the internal combustion engine has a lot of life left in it. Now, can we finally get some good diesels in the US?!
Last edited by Tanker-driver; 03-06-2012 at 06:56 PM. Reason: coherency
03-06-2012, 07:16 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 474
Again too long to quote. But you greatly under estimate green energy subsidies. Take ethanol. You have the direct subsidy of a 6 billion per year. Now add the tax credits or the difference in taxes paid on a gallon of gas and a gallon of ethanol. Now add the mandate to include 10% ethanol.
Recheck your google the stimulus alone had about 40 billion in subsidies for 2009 alone.
My logic is not faulty you asked what would happen if we went to half electric vehicles, I stand by my answer the power grid would crash. Electricity is generated by the government, the government is slow to react and inefficent. The oil industry is driven by market forces. As demand increases or as supply decreases the price goes up and generally the supply increases. As we are talking logic; why do you exclude shale? Saudi arabia will sell its oil whether we buy it or not.
What is worse for our country is overpaying for energy because we have a zenophobic reaction to who is selling it to us. The best thing for our country is if we let all forms of energy compete freely without the goobermint trying to pick winners and losers. Again have you ever heard of ethanol?
There was no point to the prius, I just enjoyed seeing a brand new (dealer tags) prius on the side of the road. I smiled as I imagined he overestimated his MPGs.
I have done plenty of work with my ranger that I could not do with your prius. I routinely carry 2500 lb loads of brick, cement or just plain dirt. Maybe I should take the city bus, the dirt would fit right in.
Recheck your google the stimulus alone had about 40 billion in subsidies for 2009 alone.
My logic is not faulty you asked what would happen if we went to half electric vehicles, I stand by my answer the power grid would crash. Electricity is generated by the government, the government is slow to react and inefficent. The oil industry is driven by market forces. As demand increases or as supply decreases the price goes up and generally the supply increases. As we are talking logic; why do you exclude shale? Saudi arabia will sell its oil whether we buy it or not.
What is worse for our country is overpaying for energy because we have a zenophobic reaction to who is selling it to us. The best thing for our country is if we let all forms of energy compete freely without the goobermint trying to pick winners and losers. Again have you ever heard of ethanol?
There was no point to the prius, I just enjoyed seeing a brand new (dealer tags) prius on the side of the road. I smiled as I imagined he overestimated his MPGs.
I have done plenty of work with my ranger that I could not do with your prius. I routinely carry 2500 lb loads of brick, cement or just plain dirt. Maybe I should take the city bus, the dirt would fit right in.
I eliminate shale because it is a nasty, energy intensive, expensive source of oil. I'd rather buy it from the US though because the stuff we get from the ME is even nastier.
The article was quoted from 2008. There was stimulus that increased subsidies when things hit the crapper, so no doubt it has gone up since. Obama promised he would increase $$ going to alternative energy and such. No doubt he did. The corn ethanol subsidy died last month or something I think. You'll have to post a link to 40B a year(?) in alternative fuel subsidies. Seems high. Regardless, you're concerned about a few billion in ethanol subsidies while we drop a trillion (and probably significantly more) in the Middle East.
The grid crash thing.....we'll agree to disagree. If you seriously think that as electric cars were produced over a period of a decade that people plugging their cars in, at night, would cause the whole grid to crash after a decade of upgrading......well......again I disagree.
You think I don't want to buy oil from the Middle East because I'm xenophobic? Seriously? I don't want to buy oil from the Middle East because the people that profit from the oil we buy want to blow up my plane and kill me and my family. They kill and maim our soldiers. They want to make nuclear bombs. They're brutal thugs who have a history of seriously abusing basic human rights. You're OK with all of this so the government doesn't have to pick "winners and losers?" Let me share something with you...we're already the losers. We're the greatest nation on the planet and a few Middle East thugs can pull our strings so we can drive SUVs instead of Volts or Leafs or Prius or whatever. To me, that's crazy.
03-06-2012, 07:32 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Glad we have you tell us what we need. That is what made this country great, micromanagement.
Saudi Arabia is going to sell their oil whether we buy it or not. Nothing we do in the next 50 years will change that. I find the Communist Chinese as repulsive and as big a threat as the arabs but it doesnt stop me from buying their rubber dog crap.
Sorry that was unfair. You dont want to tell us what we need; you just want to make what we want so expensive we have to settle for what we need.
Saudi Arabia is going to sell their oil whether we buy it or not. Nothing we do in the next 50 years will change that. I find the Communist Chinese as repulsive and as big a threat as the arabs but it doesnt stop me from buying their rubber dog crap.
Sorry that was unfair. You dont want to tell us what we need; you just want to make what we want so expensive we have to settle for what we need.
Last edited by FDXLAG; 03-06-2012 at 07:44 PM.
03-06-2012, 08:31 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,118
Just because the air in Cali sucks, that doesn't mean those of us who chose to live in more sane areas of the country should be punished and prohibited from buying fuel efficient vehicles....
03-06-2012, 09:00 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Posts: 474
Glad we have you tell us what we need. That is what made this country great, micromanagement.
Saudi Arabia is going to sell their oil whether we buy it or not. Nothing we do in the next 50 years will change that. I find the Communist Chinese as repulsive and as big a threat as the arabs but it doesnt stop me from buying their rubber dog crap.
Sorry that was unfair. You dont want to tell us what we need; you just want to make what we want so expensive we have to settle for what we need.
Saudi Arabia is going to sell their oil whether we buy it or not. Nothing we do in the next 50 years will change that. I find the Communist Chinese as repulsive and as big a threat as the arabs but it doesnt stop me from buying their rubber dog crap.
Sorry that was unfair. You dont want to tell us what we need; you just want to make what we want so expensive we have to settle for what we need.
You know what I really want? If I were King, I would make the cost of the gas at the pump be the REAL cost of the gas at the pump. In other words, I'd figure out how much it really costs Americans for a gallon of gas. I would include all the costs, including the costs of the portion of our military that is required to keep the crude oil flowing from the Middle East. I'd sum up the trillion+ so far and the couple 100 billion we spend annually, and divide it amongst the 378M gallons of gasoline we use every day in the US to drive our cars around.
Then I'd take that same cost and subtract that from our federal income tax burden since gasoline users (including me) will now be paying that share. I'd then toss out all the electric car subsidies.
So what I've done is "shifted" the cost of gasoline directly to gasoline users instead of hiding it with all the other taxes we pay. Now we don't have to "tell" anyone anything. You want to exercise your right to buy a Silverado to take the kids to soccer games? No problem. You pay the true cost of that gas when you pull up to the pump. It would probably add a few bucks per gallon to the cost of gasoline using rough numbers. If I want to avoid paying crazy high gas prices, I can pay extra for my hybrid/electric/fart-powered/whatever car myself.
Everyone's happy. I'm happy because people get to buy whatever they want and shoulder their fair burden of the high cost of their decisions, and they're happy because they don't have to read my posts on airlinepilotcentral.com anymore. We all win.
I would also make airline pilot pay a minimum of $300,000 per year with 18 days off a month. See how great it would be if I were King?
03-07-2012, 12:11 AM
#26
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
We could change it if there was a national desire too. The desire definitely isn't there, though. I mean, what would it take to get you to consider a Prius or a Fusion or an electric vehicle? You wouldn't do it just on principle, whether you thought I made good points or not, right?
You know what I really want? If I were King, I would make the cost of the gas at the pump be the REAL cost of the gas at the pump. In other words, I'd figure out how much it really costs Americans for a gallon of gas. I would include all the costs, including the costs of the portion of our military that is required to keep the crude oil flowing from the Middle East. I'd sum up the trillion+ so far and the couple 100 billion we spend annually, and divide it amongst the 378M gallons of gasoline we use every day in the US to drive our cars around.
Then I'd take that same cost and subtract that from our federal income tax burden since gasoline users (including me) will now be paying that share. I'd then toss out all the electric car subsidies.
So what I've done is "shifted" the cost of gasoline directly to gasoline users instead of hiding it with all the other taxes we pay. Now we don't have to "tell" anyone anything. You want to exercise your right to buy a Silverado to take the kids to soccer games? No problem. You pay the true cost of that gas when you pull up to the pump. It would probably add a few bucks per gallon to the cost of gasoline using rough numbers. If I want to avoid paying crazy high gas prices, I can pay extra for my hybrid/electric/fart-powered/whatever car myself.
Everyone's happy. I'm happy because people get to buy whatever they want and shoulder their fair burden of the high cost of their decisions, and they're happy because they don't have to read my posts on airlinepilotcentral.com anymore. We all win.
I would also make airline pilot pay a minimum of $300,000 per year with 18 days off a month. See how great it would be if I were King?
You know what I really want? If I were King, I would make the cost of the gas at the pump be the REAL cost of the gas at the pump. In other words, I'd figure out how much it really costs Americans for a gallon of gas. I would include all the costs, including the costs of the portion of our military that is required to keep the crude oil flowing from the Middle East. I'd sum up the trillion+ so far and the couple 100 billion we spend annually, and divide it amongst the 378M gallons of gasoline we use every day in the US to drive our cars around.
Then I'd take that same cost and subtract that from our federal income tax burden since gasoline users (including me) will now be paying that share. I'd then toss out all the electric car subsidies.
So what I've done is "shifted" the cost of gasoline directly to gasoline users instead of hiding it with all the other taxes we pay. Now we don't have to "tell" anyone anything. You want to exercise your right to buy a Silverado to take the kids to soccer games? No problem. You pay the true cost of that gas when you pull up to the pump. It would probably add a few bucks per gallon to the cost of gasoline using rough numbers. If I want to avoid paying crazy high gas prices, I can pay extra for my hybrid/electric/fart-powered/whatever car myself.
Everyone's happy. I'm happy because people get to buy whatever they want and shoulder their fair burden of the high cost of their decisions, and they're happy because they don't have to read my posts on airlinepilotcentral.com anymore. We all win.
I would also make airline pilot pay a minimum of $300,000 per year with 18 days off a month. See how great it would be if I were King?
I own two vehicles: one is a 13 year old Chevy in good condition, passes emissions, and gets 28-30 mpg going to work (about 7000 miles per year). My other "car" is a 50 cc motorcycle for most of my errands (admittedly an import-a 1982 Honda). It gets nearly 100 mpg. Should I trade it in for a shinny new Prius with its lithium batteries (lithium being an import primarily from South America)?
And when you charge Americans the "true cost of gasoline", will you drop the price 40+ cents per gallon that we currently pay in taxes?
03-07-2012, 04:07 AM
#27
With The Resistance
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Burning the Agitprop of the Apparat
Posts: 6,191
To the point of having a pick-up truck. There are people that need a pick-up truck. Sounds like you do. My beef is that the F150 is the best selling vehicle (car or truck) in the US. Do you think the majority of people that are buying it NEED a F150? There are certainly a lot of "pretty" Lariats driving around in my middle/upper-middle class neighborhoods. Maybe they've left the payment or hauled something.....but I doubt it.
I eliminate shale because it is a nasty, energy intensive, expensive source of oil. I'd rather buy it from the US though because the stuff we get from the ME is even nastier.
The article was quoted from 2008. There was stimulus that increased subsidies when things hit the crapper, so no doubt it has gone up since. Obama promised he would increase $$ going to alternative energy and such. No doubt he did. The corn ethanol subsidy died last month or something I think. You'll have to post a link to 40B a year(?) in alternative fuel subsidies. Seems high. Regardless, you're concerned about a few billion in ethanol subsidies while we drop a trillion (and probably significantly more) in the Middle East.
The grid crash thing.....we'll agree to disagree. If you seriously think that as electric cars were produced over a period of a decade that people plugging their cars in, at night, would cause the whole grid to crash after a decade of upgrading......well......again I disagree.
You think I don't want to buy oil from the Middle East because I'm xenophobic? Seriously? I don't want to buy oil from the Middle East because the people that profit from the oil we buy want to blow up my plane and kill me and my family. They kill and maim our soldiers. They want to make nuclear bombs. They're brutal thugs who have a history of seriously abusing basic human rights. You're OK with all of this so the government doesn't have to pick "winners and losers?" Let me share something with you...we're already the losers. We're the greatest nation on the planet and a few Middle East thugs can pull our strings so we can drive SUVs instead of Volts or Leafs or Prius or whatever. To me, that's crazy.
I eliminate shale because it is a nasty, energy intensive, expensive source of oil. I'd rather buy it from the US though because the stuff we get from the ME is even nastier.
The article was quoted from 2008. There was stimulus that increased subsidies when things hit the crapper, so no doubt it has gone up since. Obama promised he would increase $$ going to alternative energy and such. No doubt he did. The corn ethanol subsidy died last month or something I think. You'll have to post a link to 40B a year(?) in alternative fuel subsidies. Seems high. Regardless, you're concerned about a few billion in ethanol subsidies while we drop a trillion (and probably significantly more) in the Middle East.
The grid crash thing.....we'll agree to disagree. If you seriously think that as electric cars were produced over a period of a decade that people plugging their cars in, at night, would cause the whole grid to crash after a decade of upgrading......well......again I disagree.
You think I don't want to buy oil from the Middle East because I'm xenophobic? Seriously? I don't want to buy oil from the Middle East because the people that profit from the oil we buy want to blow up my plane and kill me and my family. They kill and maim our soldiers. They want to make nuclear bombs. They're brutal thugs who have a history of seriously abusing basic human rights. You're OK with all of this so the government doesn't have to pick "winners and losers?" Let me share something with you...we're already the losers. We're the greatest nation on the planet and a few Middle East thugs can pull our strings so we can drive SUVs instead of Volts or Leafs or Prius or whatever. To me, that's crazy.
Green projects are not going to stop terrorism. If you want all cars to run on electricity, you are going to need to ramp up nuclear and or coal plants to supply the demand.
The markets are going to pick the winners no matter how we feel.
03-07-2012, 04:15 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
We could change it if there was a national desire too. The desire definitely isn't there, though. I mean, what would it take to get you to consider a Prius or a Fusion or an electric vehicle? You wouldn't do it just on principle, whether you thought I made good points or not, right?
You know what I really want? If I were King, I would make the cost of the gas at the pump be the REAL cost of the gas at the pump. In other words, I'd figure out how much it really costs Americans for a gallon of gas. I would include all the costs, including the costs of the portion of our military that is required to keep the crude oil flowing from the Middle East. I'd sum up the trillion+ so far and the couple 100 billion we spend annually, and divide it amongst the 378M gallons of gasoline we use every day in the US to drive our cars around.
Then I'd take that same cost and subtract that from our federal income tax burden since gasoline users (including me) will now be paying that share. I'd then toss out all the electric car subsidies.
So what I've done is "shifted" the cost of gasoline directly to gasoline users instead of hiding it with all the other taxes we pay. Now we don't have to "tell" anyone anything. You want to exercise your right to buy a Silverado to take the kids to soccer games? No problem. You pay the true cost of that gas when you pull up to the pump. It would probably add a few bucks per gallon to the cost of gasoline using rough numbers. If I want to avoid paying crazy high gas prices, I can pay extra for my hybrid/electric/fart-powered/whatever car myself.
Everyone's happy. I'm happy because people get to buy whatever they want and shoulder their fair burden of the high cost of their decisions, and they're happy because they don't have to read my posts on airlinepilotcentral.com anymore. We all win.
I would also make airline pilot pay a minimum of $300,000 per year with 18 days off a month. See how great it would be if I were King?
You know what I really want? If I were King, I would make the cost of the gas at the pump be the REAL cost of the gas at the pump. In other words, I'd figure out how much it really costs Americans for a gallon of gas. I would include all the costs, including the costs of the portion of our military that is required to keep the crude oil flowing from the Middle East. I'd sum up the trillion+ so far and the couple 100 billion we spend annually, and divide it amongst the 378M gallons of gasoline we use every day in the US to drive our cars around.
Then I'd take that same cost and subtract that from our federal income tax burden since gasoline users (including me) will now be paying that share. I'd then toss out all the electric car subsidies.
So what I've done is "shifted" the cost of gasoline directly to gasoline users instead of hiding it with all the other taxes we pay. Now we don't have to "tell" anyone anything. You want to exercise your right to buy a Silverado to take the kids to soccer games? No problem. You pay the true cost of that gas when you pull up to the pump. It would probably add a few bucks per gallon to the cost of gasoline using rough numbers. If I want to avoid paying crazy high gas prices, I can pay extra for my hybrid/electric/fart-powered/whatever car myself.
Everyone's happy. I'm happy because people get to buy whatever they want and shoulder their fair burden of the high cost of their decisions, and they're happy because they don't have to read my posts on airlinepilotcentral.com anymore. We all win.
I would also make airline pilot pay a minimum of $300,000 per year with 18 days off a month. See how great it would be if I were King?
Ah yes, the bottomline of the environmental movement. Karl Marx thought if we could supplant the will of the individual wth the will of the state we could eventually achieve utopia. And amazingly enough he though you had to get rid of the notion of property rights first.
Gasoline already pays it fair share in taxes and then some. What do you think pays for the subways and the buses that nobody rides? No blood for oil, you guys still chanting that? How many countries in Africa has the progressive one put the military in the last 12 months?
I have nothing against electric vehicles. To each his own. But there is a reason the volt needs a 20K subsidy to get the price down to 40K. And we are borrowing that 20K from the chinese who are just as evil and just as dangerous as the Arabs.
03-07-2012, 04:28 AM
#29
With The Resistance
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Burning the Agitprop of the Apparat
Posts: 6,191
While we consider the "true" cost of oil, we might pause to consider the true cost of the Volt, about $250,000 per copy so far as Winged Wheeler has pointed out:http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/mo...ly-stupid.html
03-07-2012, 05:10 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 653
I think VW's new concept of a cross coupe diesel hybrid is a great looking car and something I am already trying to sell to the wife.
Lets start building more nuc plants and generate electricity. I hope to send as little of my money to the middle east as I can.
edit: I also test drove the Volt and thought it was a good car. Thought I would mention it so my basis would be clear.
Lets start building more nuc plants and generate electricity. I hope to send as little of my money to the middle east as I can.
edit: I also test drove the Volt and thought it was a good car. Thought I would mention it so my basis would be clear.
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