olkev

I'm an outsider looking in. Always been interested in aviation, even thought about it but could not afford all of the training and my eyes weren't/aren't the greatest. My dad was a corporate pilot, I have a private pilot ticket but haven't flown in a long time. I mention this as I don't have a a dog in the fight but, as an enthusiast I am wondering . . .

I see a lot of pilots talk of the poor pay at the regionals. (Frankly I'm shocked at the pay given the responsibility and the training required). The difficulty getting hired by the majors. I think many long for the days of the 60's - 70's not only in terms of pay but in the conditions as well. Flying seemed to be more of an event rather than a roundup and loading cattle, if you get my drift.

According to Skytrax, the Top Ten Airlines list has none from the United States. Most are Pacific rim with three from the Middle East and Africa.

Why don't carriers from America make the list? What do the foreign airlines do that US carriers can't or won't and why?

Rama

A lot of foreign carriers are subsidized by their governments.

Twin Wasp

You get what you pay for. I was coming home a couple of months ago. Emirates was 4 times what British/American charged. Some people will pay the difference for a 15 hour flight. On a 90 minute flight to Chicago, most people just want to get there so that's what they pay for.


Don't wish too hard to go back to the 1960s/1970s. Now we have a bit over 600,000 pilots of all types in the US of which more than 140,000 hold ATPs. Normally you only get the ATP to make a living in aviation but take some number off for ratings junkies. Say 10 percent, leaves 125,000 pilots trying to make a living flying. In 1970 there were 730,000 pilots in the US but only 34,000 held ATPs. Do the same math and just over 30,000 pilots made their living flying in 1970. You other 95,000 people need to find a new job.

LeftWing

Service, service and service.....plain and simple. American airlines' modus operandi is to get by on as little as possible. i.e., coach on many foreign carriers put American business class to shame. It doesn't surprise me in the least that no American carriers made the list.

AZFlyer

I'm sure you meant to also mention that they do that because they have to.

If Emirates, Singapore, Swiss, Cathay, etc had to actually pay for the services that they offer with only the revenue that they take in from doing business, then they would look much like American carriers, or even worse.

On the flipside, if our airlines were heavily subsidized like the best foreign carriers are, you could expect to see such levels of service from America.

BizPilot

US Government does subsidize US Airlines to an extent.

Ex. ORD-LGA flight pays NO ATC fees. In the UK if you do an hours worth of touch & goes in a C-172 at an airport with ATC they will hand you a bill for $30 or more. Landing fees are local.

DOT does charge about $1800 to certify a new airline. Ongoing monitoring is paid by the US taxpayer. In the UK they that charge about $15,000 for a Part 135 startup with 1 aircraft (<12,500#) and $15,000 or so every year. Big aircraft are more. Those charges are common all over the EU. Airlines with more than 150 aircraft pay about $750,000 a year in a base charge plus about $10,000 per each aircraft.

ATP pilots pay about $1,200 for written exam fees and another $1,200 to talk the flight test.

LeftWing

Well, no. Nothing in my post indicated that. There is no call for attempting to put words in my mouth.


Unless you can show me some reliable numbers, I'm not sure that your assertion would necessarily be true.

There really is no excuse as there are plenty of foreign airlines that are not subsidized, heavily or otherwise (no more than US airlines are subsidized) that still outclass the service level of American airlines by leaps and bounds. Korean, Virgin Atlantic, Brussels, Lufthansa, ANA etc. to name a few.

IMHO, the dismal lack of service with American airlines has mostly to do with the shift in philosophy in management. It used to be that flight ops told management what they needed to run an airline. Instead, management is telling flight ops "this is what you have, make do" and airline management has been going more to hedge funds and Wall St types, as opposed to actual airline oriented people. Also, in the days of regulation, American airlines could only compete with service as prices were set. Now, they're in a race to the bottom. (not saying we should or should not go back to regulation) Yet, I don't see that race to the bottom with the top tier foreign airlines, whether subsidized or not.

HercDriver130

Last month, I flew on Brussels Airlines from BRU-TXL (Berlin), A319, comfortable, nice FA's, flight was less than an hour in the air, with beverage and sandwich service.

Also flew, Bahrain to Dubai on Gulf Air, essentially the same, A320 service, right at 1 hour, beverage and sandwich service. FAs not as nice as on Brussels but still good.

Also flew DAL and CAL last month, service was good, NO food though and one of my flights was 4 1/2 hours ANC to MSP.

Overall I flew 7 commercial legs last month and I really have no complaints. The short flight from BRU to Berlin was probably the most pleasant from a service standpoint from the FAs.

ryguy

Just for the record, Cathay is not government subsidized and our management complains about that aspect of several other carriers as well.

Jdman

I was in Brazil and flew on TAM. The flight was from Rio to Iguasu, about a 3 hour leg in an airbus. I had bought my tickets on line months before for 175.00 a person round trip for four people. Picked our seats, no baggage fees. We get to the airport and it appears the first part of a job interview for any female at TAM is to be HOT. The service and looks of every female from the gate agent, boarding and cabin crew was outstanding. Free beverage and sandwich service on the flight. While in Iguasu, I thought about changing our outbound flight back a day to spend more time there. I called, got a girl who spoke English, who said I could change the flight back a day AT NO CHARGE. I also went online before I called to see what a ticket would be just buying new ones the day before. 179.00 a person. Try that here.

Also a friend of mine and his wife took the same flight, they goofed and went to the international airport they had flown in on, rather than the downtown airport for their flight out of Rio. They do not realize until the gate agent tells them , then "no problem" she says, about 50 keystrokes later she hands him two tickets for a flight leaving to Iguasu from the international airport, rather than downtown.

I know TAM receives government subsidies, but I wonder how much it is over the cost of the country population? I might be willing to try for service like that.