Chicks With Guns
09-29-2011, 02:53 PM
#31
Banned
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,134
Disagree for the most part. If the attacker was within arm's reach would be true. If they were across the room, the idea that losing tactical advantage because of a single warning shot is pretty weak. Most hand to hand combat shooting deaths are not from tissue damage from a single shot, they are from bleeding from multiple shot wounds.
What is the 21 foot rule? - Yahoo! Answers
21 foot rule or Tueller Drill
Keep in mind, this applies to military and law enforcement professionals that are highly trained, to include CQB. NOT just those that have attended a class nor ever fired a shot in selfdefense. It also applies to the armed individual with a firearm defending against against an edged weapon, NOT another firearm, etc.
Being awoken in the middle of the night, with fear/adrenalin kicking in, as well as flat out being in a completely non offensive position doesn't exactly validate the point you are trying to get across. The intruder/attacker has complete tactical/offensive advantage, you have NONE. Never mind that there may be more than one attacker/intruder. Firing the shot in the air will do NOTHING to help you, especially if the intruder-attacker is highly motivated and/or amped up on a stimulant. Firing the shot in the air almost sounds like you're trying to be "fair", and you know the almost cliche saying about being fair. "If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, it just means that your weapons, planning, and tactics suck".
Definitely not an SADF recce
Last edited by xjtguy; 09-29-2011 at 03:08 PM.
09-29-2011, 02:54 PM
#32
Moderator
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,807
If someone was threatening me in my home there is no way he would get off scott free...because he will be dead!
09-29-2011, 03:55 PM
#33
Snakes & Nape
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: B-767 Captain
Posts: 775
Not in Our State
Massad Ayoob says the best home defense handgun is actually a sawed-off shotgun. Be that as it may, his own weapon of choice is a Beretta 9mm with an 18-round clip. When I took my handgun course a few years ago the instructor said if someone breaks into your house, first fire a round straight up, and then kill the intruder. It took me a minute to figure out what he meant. The first round is a purely legal thing.
I don't know where you live; however, the advice you got is really BS. In the state where I live, it's a good idea IF you can call 911 on your cell phone and have the fact documented that you warned the intruder if he/she continues you will "protect yourself", then empty the magazine and make sure it's a center of mass shooting. "Surgical shooting" is even better (FFDO's know what I mean). As for a "warning shot"....forget it.
The Beretta 9 mm is also a personal favorite. BTW, saw a bumper sticker last week..."When in Doubt, Empty the Clip".
Good shooting Mates
09-29-2011, 04:52 PM
#34
Moderator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
Obviously all arguments for giving a warning shot would fall away quickly if there were not enough time, space, readiness, visibility, distance etc. Priorities defitinitely apply. But the point remains- if the local law supports an intruder as is often the case, then you will wish you had squeezed off a warning shot when the so-called victim's family takes your house in the civil suit some months later. It has happened and it is a possibility in some states. No one is arguing whether this is right or wrong, personally I support Stand Your Ground and Castle Doctrine.
09-29-2011, 05:02 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Position: AT802
Posts: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubdriver
I wonder if you would say the same when some intruder gets a sympathetic jury to send you away for voluntary manslaughter while he gets off scott free for your taking a few shots at him in your own home.
If someone was threatening me in my home there is no way he would get off scott free...because he will be dead!
Agree completely. If they are bold enough to enter your home knowing your in there, you better kill them.
No warning shots.
Originally Posted by Cubdriver
I wonder if you would say the same when some intruder gets a sympathetic jury to send you away for voluntary manslaughter while he gets off scott free for your taking a few shots at him in your own home.
If someone was threatening me in my home there is no way he would get off scott free...because he will be dead!
Agree completely. If they are bold enough to enter your home knowing your in there, you better kill them.
No warning shots.
09-29-2011, 05:43 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Sleeping in the black swan’s nest.
Posts: 5,725
The man does gun seminars for a living, is licensed for CCW training in fact, and has a state wide reputation as a gun law expert. I'll disclose his name if skeptical. He trains the local police also. But you somehow know that all the others misjudged his qualifications by a country mile and he is actually an idiot who spews useless advice. Have I got it straight?
Scenario one.
You are now mentally trained and prepped to fire a shot into the ceiling based on Mr. Wonderful the firearm instructors advice. So the night the SHTF (Stuff Hits The Fan) you are staying at a two story residence you are on the bottom floor. Bad Guy (BG) bursts into your room and starts swinging at you with a piece of re-bar. You dutifully fire your shot into the ceiling.
Good news BG runs like a scared puppy you're safe! Bad news your slug penetrated the ceiling and the floor above killing the three year old sleeping in that room.
Scenario two.
BG busts down your door you awaken from a deep slumber and immediatly grab your handgun and fire the round into the ceiling. BG has been shot at before and by the time you level your pistol on BG he's on you. Turns out he's taken some classes from me before he went bad and knows how to disarm you quickly and vilolently. By the time you figured out what is happening he's disarmed you, smashed your face flat and pumped 6 slugs into your heart and lungs. At least you won't be going to court for man slaughter charges so there is a good side to this scenario I guess.
Scenario three.
BG charges into your living room he's got a knife you fire your warning shot. You acquire your front sight and pump three rounds into him center mass. AWESOME. He falls dead CONGRATULATIONS! You however felt him "punch" you three or four times before he went down. With the adrenaline flowing you don't think much about it and the pain isn't all that bad. That's when you realize that the strange wet fluttering sound you are hearing is coming from your side just below your arm pit each time you breathe. You reach down with your hand and come up with a handful of bright red bubbly blood. You reach for the phone and dial 9-11 by the time the operator picks up your vision is going grey. 5 minutes later when the ambulance shows up your are lying dead on the floor right next to your assailant. The good news is that you killed your assailant. the bad news is that your warning shot gave him that split second he needed to strike you with his knife several times. To bad so sad!
Remember in a moment of shear adrenaline like when you have to shoot a bad guy, you are going to fall to your level of training and your most gross of gross motor skills. So do what you want in training and mental preparation but you need to be realistic about it. If you have time to fire a warning shot you'd already had time to shout some verbal commands. If he hasn't responded to those commands a warning shot isn't going to help you much is it? I am not saying there is never a time for a warning shot but to make that a carte blanche statment is idiodic and dangerous, not useless advice, it's DANGEROUS advice.
A basic concealed carry class IS NOT considered adequate hand gun training, not even close. If you'd like some real world training I highly recomend that you look into taking a class at Thunder Ranch with Clint Smith, or at Gunsite, or at Tac Pro with Bill Davidson in Stevenville Texas. Don't kid yourself into thinking you are trained and ready for a gunfight after a weekend CCW class.
I am a certified military and law enforcement trainer through Krav Maga Alliance a Krav Maga civillian instructor and a LEO.
09-29-2011, 05:56 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Position: Sr. VP of button pushing
Posts: 2,733
Thank you, Twin Wasp does not know what he or she is talking about when it comes to case law in the state of Texas. I can't remember the name of the man who shot two burglars in the back as they were running away from robbing a neighbor's house, but he was let free by a grand jury.
09-29-2011, 07:22 PM
#40
Moderator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
I appreciate your enthusiasm and earthy swagger, Hoss. But you are not real smooth at debate and your last post was covered more efficiently by Paladin in his post #28. My answer is there in post #30 so just refer to that for now.
You missed this part by Paladin:
My response in so many words.
You missed this part by Paladin:
...
1. A warning shot shows you had enough composure to decide what to do before shooting to kill, but whether this could be used to show you were truly composed is tenuous at best, and even so, you may have been justified in killing the attacker however composed you were. Danger and/or your sense of danger during the event cannot be proven one way or the other by your giving a warning shot.
2. On the contrary, a warning shot gives you a strong argument that you did not intend to kill anyone, even if such was not the case. And the best time to do this is not after the fight when everyone is injured and all the rounds are discharged. This is the argument my instructor was trying to convey- you need some proof you tried not to kill unless necessary, and the first round is about all you have to show this. The attacker may also run, which would be an even better outcome. It is clearly advantageous to be planning for the legal defense if possible because there will probably be one.
1. A warning shot shows you had enough composure to decide what to do before shooting to kill, but whether this could be used to show you were truly composed is tenuous at best, and even so, you may have been justified in killing the attacker however composed you were. Danger and/or your sense of danger during the event cannot be proven one way or the other by your giving a warning shot.
2. On the contrary, a warning shot gives you a strong argument that you did not intend to kill anyone, even if such was not the case. And the best time to do this is not after the fight when everyone is injured and all the rounds are discharged. This is the argument my instructor was trying to convey- you need some proof you tried not to kill unless necessary, and the first round is about all you have to show this. The attacker may also run, which would be an even better outcome. It is clearly advantageous to be planning for the legal defense if possible because there will probably be one.
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