cardiomd

I really like the discussion above. BTW it wasn't me for those concerned.

As others have said, big catastrophic decisions are not the same as small slips or lapses. Indeed you are right, that the consequences of a mistake are often somewhat arbitrary. However, if I made a major mistake like this (fuel miscalculation) and survived without incident it would be a lifetime blessing to pause and think about what I am doing. It is an equally dangerous attitude to "holier-than thou" to just think "well, mistakes happen, we all do them, we shouldn't criticize or examine these things."

The guy paid the ultimate price, we're not blaming him, but if a situation like that arises again in others or ourselves, I, and others believe we should not be in the air.

+1.

I agree, at least be examined in a very close way. I'm not a big fan of throwing people in jail or other recrimination though, but I think there is no way he should have been back in the air.

It is very interesting that doctors do not directly suffer in the case of mishaps like pilots. In fact, some doctors can pretty much cover up things, and given the different level of overall sickness in patients that present it is hard to even find mistakes. Some docs have views very much like SenecaII, and some like usmc-sgt.

Thankfully though, I think most of us do NOT have the attitude that we are above criticism (at least a good fraction), and will be honest with ourselves, our skills, and our attention to detail after any such incident.

So, yeah, in a bit of a way it would make me somewhat worried about his dedication to important details in his professional life as a doctor. Or, at a minimum, perhaps question his insight as to his own skills and limitations.

I really don't think it is arrogance at all, and perhaps some of this gets lost in the keyboard medium. I think that those who are pointing out their feelings apply the same standards to themselves; I don't think any of us are being hypocritical. If I *once* ran out of fuel, or my vision got bad so once I couldn't see the PAPI when everybody else could, or if I had a near miss, I'd probably hang up my license. Granted it is a lot easier for me as flight is a hobby, but it sounds like it was for this doctor too.

Similarly if I had a major near-miss in the operative suite due to sloppiness / a mistake, I'd have some *major* self-examining to do. Should others refrain from commentary because "they've made a mistake too?" No, as long as the spirit of the commentary is helpful.

rickair7777

I agree. It may have been a symptom of bigger issues, but absent additional evidence revocation does not fit the bill for a first time offense. Different story if the pilot had a long, documented record of being "that guy".

Non-pilots who advocate criminalizing honest mistakes are just clueless idiots. But a pilot who advocates that...that's a mighty load of karma you just picked up. Remind me not to fly with you.

Yazzoo

Not exactly. Re-read it a few times.

LeftWing

Would you apply that to the two American (citizens) Embraer Legacy pilots that had a midair with a Gol 737 and all on the 737 were killed? Of course, Brazilian ATC was largely at fault, but the Legacy pilots' hands weren't exactly clean either.

STLaviator

There were over 150 fatalities from that mid-air collision and from everything I've read, you're right, ATC there played a pretty significant role. The two Embraer pilots were "asked" to "surrender" their passports and pilot certificates pending investigation, and IIRC they were held in prison for several weeks until the US gov't could negotiate their extradition back to the States. The Brazilian court system tried charging the crew with negligence and homicide and sentenced the two pilots to over four years worth of prison each, but it was reduced down to substantial community service to be performed in the US. I think the controllers' sentences were also dropped down to only community service instead of 3 years of jail time.

I know this happened in another country, but is it feasible to think that even if this doctor was charged with killing his wife and two children in the first crash, that his lawyer could've helped him avoid a significant jail stay? If so, what would be the lessons learned? Would that have prevented this most recent crash?

brianb

If it takes a certain amount of what you call "arrogance" to keep my passengers safe, then so be it. Bad Pilots are bad Pilots. I'm not saying that the good Doctor was a bad Pilot, what I want to communicate to all is that the Aviation community cannot stand for sub-par pilots when it comes to flying people around. It's a duty, ( flying innocent folks around), that all Pilots should take seriously and professionally, even if your a Private Pilot. Set a higher standard.

citation35hf

+1

Great Post

UnusualAttitude

Choosing to operate outside of the parameters of your aircraft's capabilities, i.e. trying to burn more fuel than the airplane can carry, is not poor ADM it is negligence.

Every pilot should know how much fuel is on board their aircraft and it should always be operated in such a way that fuel exhaustion is out of the realm of possibility.

How can you defend this guy? He managed to kill his entire family and himself and yet you feel the need to defend him? It's not like he misread a TAF or the radar and flew into windshear. HE RAN OUT OF GAS. Amazing. We have to stop pretending that these "mistakes" are acceptable. If you run out of gas you should lose your ticket.

You can call it arrogance it you want BUT I WILL NEVER RUN OUT OF FUEL IN AN AIRPLANE due to negligent operation of the aircraft. If you could prove that he had some sort of catastrophic fuel leak then that would be different but no signs point to that whatsoever.