Sunvox

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This discussion is not about what is, but rather about what could be. I paid my own way through Canterbury Prep School then went to Dartmouth College class of '88 known as Joseph Csizmadia on a full ride because I was poor. Went to work for CommutAir and turned down job offers at Vanguard and Spirit. I interviewed with both companies just for the experience. Lucky for me I made a fortune running my wife's family trust fund and don't really need to work anymore, but continue to work just because it gives me a sense of worth to society and I genuinely hate how I have "earned" my wealth as I feel it has come from exploiting ignorance as shown by the likes of comments that you made. For what it's worth I worked as an intern on Wall St. for Manny-Hanny back in the day and chose to be a pilot because I felt it had a stronger moral backing than finance. Now I'm simply trying to explain to pilots that they are their own worst enemy, and working for less than they are worth is the problem. European trade unions figured this out centuries ago, but somehow America was taken in by the combination of Milton Friedman and Ronald Reagan. Executives in the US make more than 300 times than you, and they couldn't fly a plane for 30 seconds, but you for sure could do their job with no trouble, and yet you work for peanuts. Please explain to me what part of my sentiments makes you mad? Are you not worth more? [Mod edit: delete]

Sunvox

This is a democracy and we all make out own choices. Deregulation is a function of public opinion and that is exactly the problem. Your logic is simply this: The laws are X which results in Y so get over it. The laws are X because we as a group let them be that way. You and the entire generation that grew up under Milton Friedman and Ronald Reagan accept that as the status quo. Our fore-fathers were unwilling to accept the status quo and died for their beliefs. If I convince you that you are worth more than a starting salary of $12,000 year and you convince 2 others and we start a movement that changes the face of our union from one that is fractured and apathetic to one that is engaged and unified then we CAN change the current reality, but as long as you accept the status quo you will continue to live under the tyranny of the "king".

hockeypilot44

I agree with Sunvox.

Rolf

While I don't disagree with everything you said, you sure have a funny way of garnering support (are you one of Carl's students?). From an economic point of view, it is easier and more productive to raise the bar for the lower end than for the high contracts. This would support the high contracts and avoid the historic swings in this industry.

Rolf

P.S. SWAPA supported the Spirit Pilots in their quest

jungle

Man the lifeboats, the BS is flooding all compartments.

jungle

Sorry, but if the last decades have taught us anything at all, it is that pensions and medical care need to be paid into the employee's account in his name and fully funded. Ownership of these accounts is the only way to ensure their safety.

The idea that either a corporation or government can be trusted to manage an individual's retirement or care has been proven false over and over again.

How exactly is the playing field ever going to be level when you compare an excellent business model to a failed model? It never will be, and you can't ever regulate it to be level.

Worrying about what the other guy does is a waste of time, we can't control it and it will have little effect on a sound business.

Clear Right

Sunvox, while I think your argument is somewhat valid with regard to the income gap (i.e. Executives making 300 times more than pilots) in this particular industry. I must respectfully disagree with your implied thesis that Pilots working for Major Airlines like SWA and JBLU are causing said income disparity. My point is that pilots will not change the free market economics of a Deregulated Airline industry by choosing to not work for a particular airline. Moreover, Thomas Friedman would argue that the globalized marketplace will only provide more competition for our legacy airlines. Look at Emirates growth for example, this is now a global airline industry. And while one could argue that Emirates is "subsidized" they still offer a superior customer service product. As far as the income gap (in any industry) the real solution is for Shareholders to demand fair and relative wealth distribution from the Board of Directors. Solving the income gap requires Executives in this country to engage in Moral and Ethical Values based compensation practices, the solution for this problem lies in the MBA classrooms and the Boardroom.

jungle

Let's not forget that ALPO has failed to deliver the goods in terms of salary for many of their dues payers.

The simple fact is that successful business models pay more, it isn't about unions, and it isn't about what a CEO makes.

Imagining that you can move everyone up the scale without limiting pilot supply or recognizing a good business is just fantasy. Unfortunately it is this fantasy which hurts us far more than people working for non-union outfits.

Clear Right

IMHO the problem of supply and demand will solve itself over the next decade due to a wave of retirements. The quality of pilot supply has certainly decreased over the last decade. How many really sharp top of their class graduates are saying they want to be airline pilots due to the decline of wages over the past decade. The military has the highest retention rates in history, airline flying just isn't glamorous anymore. That will have to change as airlines will soon find it difficult to attract high quality and the quantity required soon. Who knows the recall take rate at American? Yes, many have found other jobs, but that is exactly my point they are turning down the a historically "Great Legacy" to pursue other options. Sooner or later management will have to address this issue, unless of course the entire industry doesn't hold their ground on Scope (but I digress).

757upspilot

The Military hasn't been the primary supplier of pilots to the airlines for years, unless you count the retired Lt Col/Cmdr who think they should be the Captain. Lots of High quality pilots come up the civilian side.