View Poll Results: Flat Spin.
Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll
Flat Spin
09-22-2010, 11:21 AM
#11
pants on the ground
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: back seat
Posts: 1,359
I'll take 'C' Bob Barker.
You wanted to be in the spin because it's a new type of flight characteristic for a fighter. Although inherently dangerous it saves a lot of fuel. The spin allows said aircraft to descend rapidly without gaining any airspeed allowing for low time pilots to get on glide slope. Other more 'experienced' pilots use this spin to get a 360 Situational Awareness of the dogfight among other benefits. I can't disclose my inside source on this top secret matter but this spin if done right will 'rudder kick' incoming bullets with a fury. I probably have said to much.
I'm with all others...need more info.
You wanted to be in the spin because it's a new type of flight characteristic for a fighter. Although inherently dangerous it saves a lot of fuel. The spin allows said aircraft to descend rapidly without gaining any airspeed allowing for low time pilots to get on glide slope. Other more 'experienced' pilots use this spin to get a 360 Situational Awareness of the dogfight among other benefits. I can't disclose my inside source on this top secret matter but this spin if done right will 'rudder kick' incoming bullets with a fury. I probably have said to much.
I'm with all others...need more info.
Last edited by mmaviator; 09-22-2010 at 11:45 AM. Reason: spelling of course
09-22-2010, 11:34 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 328
Capt Carl,
I agree with the others that your question is fairly open ended.
That said, if you are flying a fighter and it departs you initially try to recover from the departure. There are procedures you follow and put the flight contols where they should be to(hopefully) recover.
Departures vary greatly in severity and the ability to recover. Some are fairly slight and easily recoverable. Sometimes you enter post stall gyrations which are recoverable but increase recovery time (and altitude). Sometimes the departure is violent and yaw increases and then you enter a spin condition. Sometimes you can recover from the spin, sometimes you can't. Again, many, many variables go into it (altitude, entry speed, AOA, aircraft configuration, etc, etc).
You continue your recovery process and continue with your procedures until you a) recover or b) hit your minimum altitude and need to eject.
I flew tomcats (nutorious for spins and departures). In a fully developed flat spin the F-14 was not recoverable and our procedures stated to eject ("If in a fully developed flat spin with flat attitude, increasing yaw, increasing eyeball out g, and lack of pitch and roll rates -- eject"). A fully developed flat spin would subject the crew to lateral/negative g-forces from the "centrifuge effect" which would incapacitate the crew.
I also had plenty of departures in the Tomcat and recovered without it going into a spin.
The big thing to remember in the Tomcat was to "listen" to what the jet was telling you. When you were under high AOA conditions and you moved the stick or rudders somewhere to change direction, if the jet didn't respond it was "telling you" it didn't like where it was. Move the stick or rudders back to where they were or you'd be off on Mr Toad's wild ride in a heartbeat.
So, to answer your question: Both (as others have said)
Cheers,
ImTumbleweed
"Afterburner is a great substitute for poor headwork"
I agree with the others that your question is fairly open ended.
That said, if you are flying a fighter and it departs you initially try to recover from the departure. There are procedures you follow and put the flight contols where they should be to(hopefully) recover.
Departures vary greatly in severity and the ability to recover. Some are fairly slight and easily recoverable. Sometimes you enter post stall gyrations which are recoverable but increase recovery time (and altitude). Sometimes the departure is violent and yaw increases and then you enter a spin condition. Sometimes you can recover from the spin, sometimes you can't. Again, many, many variables go into it (altitude, entry speed, AOA, aircraft configuration, etc, etc).
You continue your recovery process and continue with your procedures until you a) recover or b) hit your minimum altitude and need to eject.
I flew tomcats (nutorious for spins and departures). In a fully developed flat spin the F-14 was not recoverable and our procedures stated to eject ("If in a fully developed flat spin with flat attitude, increasing yaw, increasing eyeball out g, and lack of pitch and roll rates -- eject"). A fully developed flat spin would subject the crew to lateral/negative g-forces from the "centrifuge effect" which would incapacitate the crew.
I also had plenty of departures in the Tomcat and recovered without it going into a spin.
The big thing to remember in the Tomcat was to "listen" to what the jet was telling you. When you were under high AOA conditions and you moved the stick or rudders somewhere to change direction, if the jet didn't respond it was "telling you" it didn't like where it was. Move the stick or rudders back to where they were or you'd be off on Mr Toad's wild ride in a heartbeat.
So, to answer your question: Both (as others have said)
Cheers,
ImTumbleweed
"Afterburner is a great substitute for poor headwork"
09-22-2010, 01:57 PM
#14
I'm a man of my word.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: Devil's Advocate
Posts: 2,883
I will. It's a relationship I'm trying to save.
Last edited by CaptainCarl; 09-22-2010 at 02:27 PM.
09-22-2010, 03:17 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Sleeping in the black swan’s nest.
Posts: 5,726
Alrighty then.....
Inverted and non inverted flat spins are a very routine aerobatic maneuver in many different types of aircraft. Key, it takes power to hold a plane in a flat spin all that is required to recover to chopping the power and letting the nose fall through the horizon.
So I guess I'm not getting exactly what the question is.
Let me ask you one there Capt Carl....
Have you ever flown aerobatics? Are you even a pilot? I'm not trying to be a jerk here but that is a really strange question for a pilot to ask without some further information.
This should demystify it for you somewhat. A flat spin is not that big of a deal if you are trained and your airplane is capable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDRCnEUSwlg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJp6W...eature=related
Inverted and non inverted flat spins are a very routine aerobatic maneuver in many different types of aircraft. Key, it takes power to hold a plane in a flat spin all that is required to recover to chopping the power and letting the nose fall through the horizon.
So I guess I'm not getting exactly what the question is.
Let me ask you one there Capt Carl....
Have you ever flown aerobatics? Are you even a pilot? I'm not trying to be a jerk here but that is a really strange question for a pilot to ask without some further information.
This should demystify it for you somewhat. A flat spin is not that big of a deal if you are trained and your airplane is capable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDRCnEUSwlg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJp6W...eature=related
09-22-2010, 05:17 PM
#16
Moderate Moderator
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Curator at Static Display
Posts: 5,681
Airplanes or Metaphor
What USMC, AirHoss, and Tumbleweed said regarding airplanes, specifically, jet fighters (I'm not aware of a lot of prop airplanes with flat-spin characteristics):
1. If it is an airplane with known recoverable modes from spins, do so IF:
2. You have the altitude to do it.
IF NOT:
3. Punch.
If this is a metaphor for a relationship:
1. If it is a woman with a known recoverable mode, do so IF:
2. You will not go below the Integrity floor, nor violate the regret barrier.
IF NOT:
3. Punch.
PS: The most powerful psychotropic drug known to mankind is estrogen.
1. If it is an airplane with known recoverable modes from spins, do so IF:
2. You have the altitude to do it.
IF NOT:
3. Punch.
If this is a metaphor for a relationship:
1. If it is a woman with a known recoverable mode, do so IF:
2. You will not go below the Integrity floor, nor violate the regret barrier.
IF NOT:
3. Punch.
PS: The most powerful psychotropic drug known to mankind is estrogen.
09-22-2010, 05:23 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: DD->DH->RU/XE soon to be EV
Posts: 3,732
Dude, grab the handle, NOW!!!!!!
See above.
09-22-2010, 05:32 PM
#18
I'm a man of my word.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: Devil's Advocate
Posts: 2,883
If this is a metaphor for a relationship:
1. If it is a woman with a known recoverable mode, do so IF:
2. You will not go below the Integrity floor, nor violate the regret barrier.
IF NOT:
3. Punch.
PS: The most powerful psychotropic drug known to mankind is estrogen.
1. If it is a woman with a known recoverable mode, do so IF:
2. You will not go below the Integrity floor, nor violate the regret barrier.
IF NOT:
3. Punch.
PS: The most powerful psychotropic drug known to mankind is estrogen.
Last edited by CaptainCarl; 09-22-2010 at 05:45 PM.
09-22-2010, 06:22 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 317
Training. 
Our min ejection altitudes where initially 10,000' and then eventually lowered to 6,000'
We do alot of training below those altitudes.
Also - many air-to-ground strike delivery profiles have minimum altitudes as low as 500'. You can depart the aircraft pulling off target for instance
USMCFLYR
Our min ejection altitudes where initially 10,000' and then eventually lowered to 6,000'
We do alot of training below those altitudes.
Also - many air-to-ground strike delivery profiles have minimum altitudes as low as 500'. You can depart the aircraft pulling off target for instance
USMCFLYR
YouTube - USAF Thunderbirds F-16 Crash at Idaho
09-22-2010, 07:22 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 328
PiperPower,
The ejection altitudes are based on the altitude required to recover the aircraft after you have recovered from a spin/departure (hope that makes sense).
So, if you are in a fully developed spin and you pass 6,000 AGL, you will NOT be able to recover the jet prior to hitting the ground even if you get out of the spin (according to the engineers).
Additionally, when you recover, you tend to be nose low (extremely low) and accelerating, and pulling high G's to recover. Ejecting now might be out of the envelope (or cause serious injury).
So for us it was a rule of thumb... if you're in a spin, and haven't started a recovery by 6,000 ft AGL, the plane is going to hit the dirt. Whether you are in the jet or not is your choice.
I don't think anyone would fault you if you pushed that 6K altitude a bit in order to save the jet but I know more than a few guys who waited too long before they pulled the handle and they aren't around anymore.
Most guys will do everything in their power to save the jet. Just like General Aviation we have procedures and memory items to go through. We practice CRM with our wingman and base as time allows. You do everything you can to save the jet and follow procedures but sometime the jet is just broken or won't fly anymore. Most jets have the glide characteristics of a coke machine. If you find yourself sitting in a coke machine at 1,000 ft you probably don't want to be in it when it lands.
Fighters have problems all the time and most land uneventfully. In some rare events the problems are so severe the only option to survive is to grab the handle.
When it's time to go, it's time to go.
Cheers,
ImTumbleweed
"Afterburner is a great substitute for poor headwork"
The ejection altitudes are based on the altitude required to recover the aircraft after you have recovered from a spin/departure (hope that makes sense).
So, if you are in a fully developed spin and you pass 6,000 AGL, you will NOT be able to recover the jet prior to hitting the ground even if you get out of the spin (according to the engineers).
Additionally, when you recover, you tend to be nose low (extremely low) and accelerating, and pulling high G's to recover. Ejecting now might be out of the envelope (or cause serious injury).
So for us it was a rule of thumb... if you're in a spin, and haven't started a recovery by 6,000 ft AGL, the plane is going to hit the dirt. Whether you are in the jet or not is your choice.
I don't think anyone would fault you if you pushed that 6K altitude a bit in order to save the jet but I know more than a few guys who waited too long before they pulled the handle and they aren't around anymore.
Most guys will do everything in their power to save the jet. Just like General Aviation we have procedures and memory items to go through. We practice CRM with our wingman and base as time allows. You do everything you can to save the jet and follow procedures but sometime the jet is just broken or won't fly anymore. Most jets have the glide characteristics of a coke machine. If you find yourself sitting in a coke machine at 1,000 ft you probably don't want to be in it when it lands.
Fighters have problems all the time and most land uneventfully. In some rare events the problems are so severe the only option to survive is to grab the handle.
When it's time to go, it's time to go.
Cheers,
ImTumbleweed
"Afterburner is a great substitute for poor headwork"
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