Us "young" guys
07-04-2010, 09:37 PM
#21
With The Resistance
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Burning the Agitprop of the Apparat
Posts: 6,191
I think the word "professional" is so over used now-a-days that the word has really lost it's true meaning. Everyone thinks they are a professional. Everyone thinks they work in a "profession". Being professional is equated to a garb of clothes and a nice hair cut.
Recently I was asked in an interview what a professional was. I could have just given another canned answer, but I tried to explain my thoughts more along these lines...
In the most basic sense a professional is someone who works for money, is not an amateur. That can be anyone of any character. Prostitution is "the oldest profession" after all. I doubt that when most pilots think of being "professional" they equate themselves to prostitutes, however.
Many equate "professionalism" as somehow always being wrapped in appearence and/or the public perception of them. This seems to be a very common theme, or, at least a major part of most definitions. Although, unlike the prostitutes mentioned above, an attractive appearance in this case is taken as a moral virtue. Personally, to me, appearance is appearance and I don't see a spiffy pilot as being any more virtuous than a nice looking lady of the night.
To me a professional is someone who engages in a profession. A profession is a vocation in the branches of science or learning (as defined in the dictionary). A doctor is the usually one of the first professions that comes to mind, but you could include many other jobs in there that require life long expertise and learning. I would submit to you that a professional requires a college degree. Preferably an advanced degree. But beyond that other life long learning, obtaining of new skills, certifications, etc.
Professionals have their own governing bodies that govern their own affairs, requirements for entry, dismissal, ethics, standards, etc. Individuals in the profession are also expected to independently maintain high standards of conduct and learning. They are given greater latitude in this regard than workers outside of a true profession. There is a great societal trust to maintain.
AND professionals profess. In other words they teach. They mentor. They associate. They pass on knowledge.
I say if you want to be a true professional then you got to have the whole package. If you can't independently maintain high standards, then you're not a professional. If you are not committed to obtaining a degree, flying skills and working life long to improve, then you are not a professional. If you don't associate and profess (teach) to bring up the next generation, then you are not a professional.
I think that good pilots are all these things. We deserved to be lumped with doctors, professors, scientists, lawyers, military officers, the clergy, etc.
P.S.- Do any of the other professions wear back packs? Does it really matter in the big scheme of things? Would you not go to a doctor if he wore a back pack to work? I'd be more worried about where he went to med school, his experience and his reputation.
Recently I was asked in an interview what a professional was. I could have just given another canned answer, but I tried to explain my thoughts more along these lines...
In the most basic sense a professional is someone who works for money, is not an amateur. That can be anyone of any character. Prostitution is "the oldest profession" after all. I doubt that when most pilots think of being "professional" they equate themselves to prostitutes, however.
Many equate "professionalism" as somehow always being wrapped in appearence and/or the public perception of them. This seems to be a very common theme, or, at least a major part of most definitions. Although, unlike the prostitutes mentioned above, an attractive appearance in this case is taken as a moral virtue. Personally, to me, appearance is appearance and I don't see a spiffy pilot as being any more virtuous than a nice looking lady of the night.
To me a professional is someone who engages in a profession. A profession is a vocation in the branches of science or learning (as defined in the dictionary). A doctor is the usually one of the first professions that comes to mind, but you could include many other jobs in there that require life long expertise and learning. I would submit to you that a professional requires a college degree. Preferably an advanced degree. But beyond that other life long learning, obtaining of new skills, certifications, etc.
Professionals have their own governing bodies that govern their own affairs, requirements for entry, dismissal, ethics, standards, etc. Individuals in the profession are also expected to independently maintain high standards of conduct and learning. They are given greater latitude in this regard than workers outside of a true profession. There is a great societal trust to maintain.
AND professionals profess. In other words they teach. They mentor. They associate. They pass on knowledge.
I say if you want to be a true professional then you got to have the whole package. If you can't independently maintain high standards, then you're not a professional. If you are not committed to obtaining a degree, flying skills and working life long to improve, then you are not a professional. If you don't associate and profess (teach) to bring up the next generation, then you are not a professional.
I think that good pilots are all these things. We deserved to be lumped with doctors, professors, scientists, lawyers, military officers, the clergy, etc.
P.S.- Do any of the other professions wear back packs? Does it really matter in the big scheme of things? Would you not go to a doctor if he wore a back pack to work? I'd be more worried about where he went to med school, his experience and his reputation.
07-04-2010, 09:50 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,839
I think the word "professional" is so over used now-a-days that the word has really lost it's true meaning. Everyone thinks they are a professional. Everyone thinks they work in a "profession". Being professional is equated to a garb of clothes and a nice hair cut.
Recently I was asked in an interview what a professional was. I could have just given another canned answer, but I tried to explain my thoughts more along these lines...
In the most basic sense a professional is someone who works for money, is not an amateur. That can be anyone of any character. Prostitution is "the oldest profession" after all. I doubt that when most pilots think of being "professional" they equate themselves to prostitutes, however.
Many equate "professionalism" as somehow always being wrapped in appearence and/or the public perception of them. This seems to be a very common theme, or, at least a major part of most definitions. Although, unlike the prostitutes mentioned above, an attractive appearance in this case is taken as a moral virtue. Personally, to me, appearance is appearance and I don't see a spiffy pilot as being any more virtuous than a nice looking lady of the night.
To me a professional is someone who engages in a profession. A profession is a vocation in the branches of science or learning (as defined in the dictionary). A doctor is the usually one of the first professions that comes to mind, but you could include many other jobs in there that require life long expertise and learning. I would submit to you that a professional requires a college degree. Preferably an advanced degree. But beyond that other life long learning, obtaining of new skills, certifications, etc.
Professionals have their own governing bodies that govern their own affairs, requirements for entry, dismissal, ethics, standards, etc. Individuals in the profession are also expected to independently maintain high standards of conduct and learning. They are given greater latitude in this regard than workers outside of a true profession. There is a great societal trust to maintain.
AND professionals profess. In other words they teach. They mentor. They associate. They pass on knowledge.
I say if you want to be a true professional then you got to have the whole package. If you can't independently maintain high standards, then you're not a professional. If you are not committed to obtaining a degree, flying skills and working life long to improve, then you are not a professional. If you don't associate and profess (teach) to bring up the next generation, then you are not a professional.
I think that good pilots are all these things. We deserved to be lumped with doctors, professors, scientists, lawyers, military officers, the clergy, etc.
P.S.- Do any of the other professions wear back packs? Does it really matter in the big scheme of things? Would you not go to a doctor if he wore a back pack to work? I'd be more worried about where he went to med school, his experience and his reputation.
Recently I was asked in an interview what a professional was. I could have just given another canned answer, but I tried to explain my thoughts more along these lines...
In the most basic sense a professional is someone who works for money, is not an amateur. That can be anyone of any character. Prostitution is "the oldest profession" after all. I doubt that when most pilots think of being "professional" they equate themselves to prostitutes, however.
Many equate "professionalism" as somehow always being wrapped in appearence and/or the public perception of them. This seems to be a very common theme, or, at least a major part of most definitions. Although, unlike the prostitutes mentioned above, an attractive appearance in this case is taken as a moral virtue. Personally, to me, appearance is appearance and I don't see a spiffy pilot as being any more virtuous than a nice looking lady of the night.
To me a professional is someone who engages in a profession. A profession is a vocation in the branches of science or learning (as defined in the dictionary). A doctor is the usually one of the first professions that comes to mind, but you could include many other jobs in there that require life long expertise and learning. I would submit to you that a professional requires a college degree. Preferably an advanced degree. But beyond that other life long learning, obtaining of new skills, certifications, etc.
Professionals have their own governing bodies that govern their own affairs, requirements for entry, dismissal, ethics, standards, etc. Individuals in the profession are also expected to independently maintain high standards of conduct and learning. They are given greater latitude in this regard than workers outside of a true profession. There is a great societal trust to maintain.
AND professionals profess. In other words they teach. They mentor. They associate. They pass on knowledge.
I say if you want to be a true professional then you got to have the whole package. If you can't independently maintain high standards, then you're not a professional. If you are not committed to obtaining a degree, flying skills and working life long to improve, then you are not a professional. If you don't associate and profess (teach) to bring up the next generation, then you are not a professional.
I think that good pilots are all these things. We deserved to be lumped with doctors, professors, scientists, lawyers, military officers, the clergy, etc.
P.S.- Do any of the other professions wear back packs? Does it really matter in the big scheme of things? Would you not go to a doctor if he wore a back pack to work? I'd be more worried about where he went to med school, his experience and his reputation.
I think that you hit all aspects of being a professional very nicely in your post OldSF3Dude, but I would add something to the very end where you speak of the 'profession' of the dress and whether anyone would care if the doctor wears a backpack.
My point, and maybe some others, believe that there is nothing wrong with wearing a back pack if your 'profession's' rule allow such; but in the case of the military (until sometime recently at least it seems) and according to some airline's dress rules - it is not allowed. So....if you are violating your company's policies when wearing a back pack while in uniform, wearing iPod earplugs, not wearing your hat or anything else that is against said rules, then you are not being a professional and "independently maintain[ing] high standards of conduct...."
USMCFLYR
07-05-2010, 12:00 AM
#23
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
Well, yes and no. Yes I want to know his/her training, but I also want someone who looks the part. I have never gone to a doctor who smoked (or if he did he hid it well) and most of my doctors looked relatively fit (a bit of a spare tire in one's autumn years is IMHO forgivable). But if the guy comes in weighting 350 lbs, with a ZZ Top beard, or unclipped fingernails (especially a surgeon) I WILL have second thoughts.
So, my take is this: If one comes to work looking crisp, but through the day's duties loses his luster, he is okay. I press my clean shirt every day, but I am likely to have a line of grease from the wheel wells and wrinkles from the five point harness by the end of 8 legs. Still, each time I am seen by the public, the shirt is tucked, the tie is straight, and my hair is a good as I can get after wearing the David Clarks for several hours.
As for backpacks..... a tie with a backpack looks stupid (my apologies to the Jehovah's Witnesses)
07-05-2010, 04:48 AM
#25
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 60
07-05-2010, 08:03 AM
#26
New Hire
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: Embraer Left
Posts: 5
Since we are picking on backpacks....
Does the CEO that wears a backpack and takes public transportation seem unprofessional to you?
Does the man/woman that finds a living on Wall Street (that has a back pack) seem any less professional to you?
Does the White House worker that lives in a suit/tie/backpack seem any less professional to you?
I'm not saying that the backpack argument is unfounded, I'm saying your (Legacy Pilot Tough Guy) overall argument is unfounded. Am I wrong? Come listen to Charlotte Ramp between 7pm and 11pm and tell me how wrong I am. Go listen to DCA ground on any given day and tell me how wrong I am. Hang around ORD and just watch. In some form or another, we all act like a bunch of kids. It's sad.
Leading by example, mentor-ship, offering good, sound advice......that's professionalism.....not racing my RJ to the corner of Foxtrot and the ramp.
I don't have a backpack that I take to work, but if you (insert bitter mainline pilot that sneers at me as I try to be proud of my career choice) told me that it was unprofessional.....why would I even listen?
As far as I am concerned, there is a growing majority that fail to care one bit about how the "new-young pilots" are brought up but that same majority is the quickest to point out how malformed we are. If I am wrong, come forward and let's build something. I've been in the regionals for 6 years now (a comparatively short time) and worked under the umbrellas of 4 different "mainline" products. My left seat time is short at a year and a half. Clearly I have much to learn.
Until someone proves to me that I actually ought to respect the opinion of the guy that cuts me off, taxi's at what can only be described as a ridiculously unsafe speed (757 if you wondered) or the guy that blocks frequencies just because he can, I will continue to mentor, be positive (as much as I can) and hopefully teach the guys/gals that sit next to me. I will wait for you to cross, I will most likely taxi slower than you, and I'll wave at you.....and when you flip me off across a ramp full of your anger, don't be surprised when I have an inherent lack of respect for you.
Want to talk backpacks now?
Does the CEO that wears a backpack and takes public transportation seem unprofessional to you?
Does the man/woman that finds a living on Wall Street (that has a back pack) seem any less professional to you?
Does the White House worker that lives in a suit/tie/backpack seem any less professional to you?
I'm not saying that the backpack argument is unfounded, I'm saying your (Legacy Pilot Tough Guy) overall argument is unfounded. Am I wrong? Come listen to Charlotte Ramp between 7pm and 11pm and tell me how wrong I am. Go listen to DCA ground on any given day and tell me how wrong I am. Hang around ORD and just watch. In some form or another, we all act like a bunch of kids. It's sad.
Leading by example, mentor-ship, offering good, sound advice......that's professionalism.....not racing my RJ to the corner of Foxtrot and the ramp.
I don't have a backpack that I take to work, but if you (insert bitter mainline pilot that sneers at me as I try to be proud of my career choice) told me that it was unprofessional.....why would I even listen?
As far as I am concerned, there is a growing majority that fail to care one bit about how the "new-young pilots" are brought up but that same majority is the quickest to point out how malformed we are. If I am wrong, come forward and let's build something. I've been in the regionals for 6 years now (a comparatively short time) and worked under the umbrellas of 4 different "mainline" products. My left seat time is short at a year and a half. Clearly I have much to learn.
Until someone proves to me that I actually ought to respect the opinion of the guy that cuts me off, taxi's at what can only be described as a ridiculously unsafe speed (757 if you wondered) or the guy that blocks frequencies just because he can, I will continue to mentor, be positive (as much as I can) and hopefully teach the guys/gals that sit next to me. I will wait for you to cross, I will most likely taxi slower than you, and I'll wave at you.....and when you flip me off across a ramp full of your anger, don't be surprised when I have an inherent lack of respect for you.
Want to talk backpacks now?
07-05-2010, 08:04 AM
#27
Banned
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,480
Then again, as a twenty something aspiring career pilot, i agree many of the ills of our current situation are from the older generation selling us a fecal sandwhich. I believe the situation may improve as the current cop of regional captains moves onto bigger and better things and the stagnation of age 65 and economic downturn correct themselves.
That alone would make me work like crazy to improve the pay and work rules at my regional.
Not to put words in the thread-starter's mouth, when I began reading this thread I thought of the very small subset of senior CA's who believe that 'years of experience' are some kind of a substitute for situational awareness and a safe attitude. Yeah, they're wearing their hat, their shirt is pressed, they smile and greet passengers, but running a checklist is beneath them. Those are the kind of idiots I can't stand..
There you go. Sometimes, perception IS reality.
A. No one from the Chief Pilot's office is enforcing the uniform rules.
B. I've noticed a lot of the backpackers are FFDOs.
07-05-2010, 09:11 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: CRJ
Posts: 419
Since we are picking on backpacks....
Does the CEO that wears a backpack and takes public transportation seem unprofessional to you?
Does the man/woman that finds a living on Wall Street (that has a back pack) seem any less professional to you?
Does the White House worker that lives in a suit/tie/backpack seem any less professional to you?
I'm not saying that the backpack argument is unfounded, I'm saying your (Legacy Pilot Tough Guy) overall argument is unfounded. Am I wrong? Come listen to Charlotte Ramp between 7pm and 11pm and tell me how wrong I am. Go listen to DCA ground on any given day and tell me how wrong I am. Hang around ORD and just watch. In some form or another, we all act like a bunch of kids. It's sad.
Leading by example, mentor-ship, offering good, sound advice......that's professionalism.....not racing my RJ to the corner of Foxtrot and the ramp.
I don't have a backpack that I take to work, but if you (insert bitter mainline pilot that sneers at me as I try to be proud of my career choice) told me that it was unprofessional.....why would I even listen?
As far as I am concerned, there is a growing majority that fail to care one bit about how the "new-young pilots" are brought up but that same majority is the quickest to point out how malformed we are. If I am wrong, come forward and let's build something. I've been in the regionals for 6 years now (a comparatively short time) and worked under the umbrellas of 4 different "mainline" products. My left seat time is short at a year and a half. Clearly I have much to learn.
Until someone proves to me that I actually ought to respect the opinion of the guy that cuts me off, taxi's at what can only be described as a ridiculously unsafe speed (757 if you wondered) or the guy that blocks frequencies just because he can, I will continue to mentor, be positive (as much as I can) and hopefully teach the guys/gals that sit next to me. I will wait for you to cross, I will most likely taxi slower than you, and I'll wave at you.....and when you flip me off across a ramp full of your anger, don't be surprised when I have an inherent lack of respect for you.
Want to talk backpacks now?
Does the CEO that wears a backpack and takes public transportation seem unprofessional to you?
Does the man/woman that finds a living on Wall Street (that has a back pack) seem any less professional to you?
Does the White House worker that lives in a suit/tie/backpack seem any less professional to you?
I'm not saying that the backpack argument is unfounded, I'm saying your (Legacy Pilot Tough Guy) overall argument is unfounded. Am I wrong? Come listen to Charlotte Ramp between 7pm and 11pm and tell me how wrong I am. Go listen to DCA ground on any given day and tell me how wrong I am. Hang around ORD and just watch. In some form or another, we all act like a bunch of kids. It's sad.
Leading by example, mentor-ship, offering good, sound advice......that's professionalism.....not racing my RJ to the corner of Foxtrot and the ramp.
I don't have a backpack that I take to work, but if you (insert bitter mainline pilot that sneers at me as I try to be proud of my career choice) told me that it was unprofessional.....why would I even listen?
As far as I am concerned, there is a growing majority that fail to care one bit about how the "new-young pilots" are brought up but that same majority is the quickest to point out how malformed we are. If I am wrong, come forward and let's build something. I've been in the regionals for 6 years now (a comparatively short time) and worked under the umbrellas of 4 different "mainline" products. My left seat time is short at a year and a half. Clearly I have much to learn.
Until someone proves to me that I actually ought to respect the opinion of the guy that cuts me off, taxi's at what can only be described as a ridiculously unsafe speed (757 if you wondered) or the guy that blocks frequencies just because he can, I will continue to mentor, be positive (as much as I can) and hopefully teach the guys/gals that sit next to me. I will wait for you to cross, I will most likely taxi slower than you, and I'll wave at you.....and when you flip me off across a ramp full of your anger, don't be surprised when I have an inherent lack of respect for you.
Want to talk backpacks now?
You want respect from me, but how can I respect you when it is not reciprocated? I'm only 26 and haven't been in the industry for very long, so I don't pretend to know everything. There is a lot that I don't know and I want to know. Sometimes the example that is set by some is poor. Always blaming someone else for making the profession look bad, but in fact you are the ones that make it look bad sometimes. Not saying that my fellow youngsters are perfect. I see the examples of what you guys have pointed out and I agree with you. I also see some of the same stuff from older guys. Maybe the younger group needs to govern our selves about looking and acting professional. I for one am getting a little tired of being grouped in the same category as some bad apples. Tired of getting looked at and treated like a piece of gum under a shoe by fellow pilots sometimes.
I'm not looking for someone to hold my hand, nor should people have to be told how to dress or act. It should just be done with no questions asked. If you don't like it, don't like your pay, your schedule then quit. Go do something else. I also understand that crap rolls down hill and I am there to get hit with it. Just part of being junior. I expect if I do something wrong or unprofessional, for someone to correct me. I just think the lack respect and lack of mentor-ship towards the younger groups needs to be addressed. I guess respect towards other pilots in general is lacking as well.
07-05-2010, 12:06 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: O-2 pilot
Posts: 123
I was thinking more about what a "professional" is today. I was thinking about some old books I had from back in my military days. I dug one up from out of a box in the garage. The quote below kind of encapsulates what I was getting at-
"There are occupations in which what is demanded of those who pursue them cannot be entirely regulated by contracts between men. The compulsions exerted in these occupations arise mainly from the nature of the task itself. They include those of the priest, the healer, the lawgiver, the craftsman, the teacher, the scholar, the seaman and the farmer. These are not merely mechanical pursuits. Among them the profession of arms deserves, and I believe it has, a respected place." -- The Profession of Arms by General Sir John Hackett
I say you can add the profession of pilot in there as well...
"There are occupations in which what is demanded of those who pursue them cannot be entirely regulated by contracts between men. The compulsions exerted in these occupations arise mainly from the nature of the task itself. They include those of the priest, the healer, the lawgiver, the craftsman, the teacher, the scholar, the seaman and the farmer. These are not merely mechanical pursuits. Among them the profession of arms deserves, and I believe it has, a respected place." -- The Profession of Arms by General Sir John Hackett
I say you can add the profession of pilot in there as well...
07-06-2010, 06:54 AM
#30
Flying Farmer
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Turbo-props' and John Deere's
Posts: 3,160
True Professionals IMHO exert Pride in their work, whatever that may be. As some as you have mentioned, always trying to improve yourself, help others, and just do your job to the best of your ability. That is a professional.
I'm a farmer(part-time) on top of being a pilot. I take as much pride in that work as I do my flying, and if I didn't it wouldn't be satisfying at all, it would just be another job.
Now, I do believe wardrobe is a small part of the picture. You signed up to be a pilot, dress like one, just like lawyers, doctors, police officers etc....
I'm a farmer(part-time) on top of being a pilot. I take as much pride in that work as I do my flying, and if I didn't it wouldn't be satisfying at all, it would just be another job.
Now, I do believe wardrobe is a small part of the picture. You signed up to be a pilot, dress like one, just like lawyers, doctors, police officers etc....
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
EMmariano
Flight Schools and Training
7
03-06-2009 05:24 PM
