Loose Change
06-01-2010, 06:47 PM
#1
I'm a man of my word.
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Joined APC: Jul 2008
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Posts: 2,883
Loose Change
Last edited by CaptainCarl; 06-02-2010 at 02:01 PM.
06-01-2010, 08:07 PM
#3
I'm a man of my word.
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Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: Devil's Advocate
Posts: 2,883
Now we are getting somewhere! Let's start with the Pentagon. Tell me what you thought about that.
06-02-2010, 04:26 AM
#4
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: electron wrangler
Posts: 372
Re: Loose Change
The co-chairmen of the 9-11 Commission wrote an opinion piece after the commission was defunded saying the CIA stonewalled their investigation until the commission was disbanded. They have complained in other venues that they believed they were lied to by the FAA, NORAD and the Pentagon but they didn't have the time or money to probe deeper.
The fact is, I don't know what happened on 9-11 and my assertion is that you don't either.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/02/opinion/02kean.html
06-02-2010, 04:52 AM
#5
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,618
06-02-2010, 06:34 AM
#7
Moderate Moderator
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Curator at Static Display
Posts: 5,681
Dale Gribble & Psuedo-Engineering
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loose_Change_(film)
The FOCs (Fans of Conspiracy) use the lack of sizable aircraft wreckage and fragments (Pentagon and Pennsylvania), and the seemingly inexplicable speed with which the towers and Building 7 collapsed as the centerpiece of the argument that "The Government" orchestrated this.
My question for them is: have you ever investigated an aircraft accident? Or designed a skyscraper?
My point is: to a person, a jet airliner or 1000-ft building seems like a very strong and robust structure...because it is so heavy and strong compared to us.
But aircraft (and high-rises) are actually relatively flimsy creations. They have to be made just strong enough to deal with the expected forces they would encounter in their use, or else they won't work, or they won't make money.
Back to my original question (investigating an aircraft crash): most aircraft accidents occur during takeoff or landing (mostly landing). People are used to seeing pieces of wreckage on the news when this happens.
The reason there is wreckage is because the plane wasn't going very fast.
I've seen what happens to jet fighters when they hit the ground at transonic speed. There's a hole...and not much else. (Fighters are stronger than airliners). If there's a fire? Aluminum will burn, if it's hot enough. The remants look like ash from paper....and blow away.
I've never designed a building, but as an engineer, I can understand the principle of light, load-bearing structures...and how a small compromise can collapse the whole thing.
Finally, the biggest flaw to me in the Conspiracy theories is about human nature. Somehow, with hundreds, if not thousands of 'insiders' pulling off this 'job,' no one has leaked anything.
People tell secrets--you just can't shut 'em up. How many things did I learn in the Air Force about enemy systems over a period of years...someone must have blabbed. How many of our systems were compromised because someone told the wrong thing to the wrong person? The tabloids have turned the revealing of 'secrets' into a business model, whether they are Holywood, political, or 'conspiracies.' How many politicians have fallen in the last 5 years because someone revealed they were dipping their pen in the wrong ink-well?
I do believe the government is corrupt and does not serve the original intent of the Constitutuion. I do believe there are secrets they don't tell, and they use deliberate disinformation/selective facts to keep the bulk of people pacified or in the dark.
But I don't think even our own inept government has the collective evil conviction to kill innocent people in the furtherance of policy or financial gain, nor the ability to keep it quiet.
(I found it interesting that the maker of the film started it as a fictional screenplay, but found enough 'facts' that he thought he could turn it into an expose).
The FOCs (Fans of Conspiracy) use the lack of sizable aircraft wreckage and fragments (Pentagon and Pennsylvania), and the seemingly inexplicable speed with which the towers and Building 7 collapsed as the centerpiece of the argument that "The Government" orchestrated this.
My question for them is: have you ever investigated an aircraft accident? Or designed a skyscraper?
My point is: to a person, a jet airliner or 1000-ft building seems like a very strong and robust structure...because it is so heavy and strong compared to us.
But aircraft (and high-rises) are actually relatively flimsy creations. They have to be made just strong enough to deal with the expected forces they would encounter in their use, or else they won't work, or they won't make money.
Back to my original question (investigating an aircraft crash): most aircraft accidents occur during takeoff or landing (mostly landing). People are used to seeing pieces of wreckage on the news when this happens.
The reason there is wreckage is because the plane wasn't going very fast.
I've seen what happens to jet fighters when they hit the ground at transonic speed. There's a hole...and not much else. (Fighters are stronger than airliners). If there's a fire? Aluminum will burn, if it's hot enough. The remants look like ash from paper....and blow away.
I've never designed a building, but as an engineer, I can understand the principle of light, load-bearing structures...and how a small compromise can collapse the whole thing.
Finally, the biggest flaw to me in the Conspiracy theories is about human nature. Somehow, with hundreds, if not thousands of 'insiders' pulling off this 'job,' no one has leaked anything.
People tell secrets--you just can't shut 'em up. How many things did I learn in the Air Force about enemy systems over a period of years...someone must have blabbed. How many of our systems were compromised because someone told the wrong thing to the wrong person? The tabloids have turned the revealing of 'secrets' into a business model, whether they are Holywood, political, or 'conspiracies.' How many politicians have fallen in the last 5 years because someone revealed they were dipping their pen in the wrong ink-well?
I do believe the government is corrupt and does not serve the original intent of the Constitutuion. I do believe there are secrets they don't tell, and they use deliberate disinformation/selective facts to keep the bulk of people pacified or in the dark.
But I don't think even our own inept government has the collective evil conviction to kill innocent people in the furtherance of policy or financial gain, nor the ability to keep it quiet.
(I found it interesting that the maker of the film started it as a fictional screenplay, but found enough 'facts' that he thought he could turn it into an expose).
06-02-2010, 06:47 AM
#8
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,388
This kind of crap is ridiculous. We have many bigger problems to worry about than fantasizing about alternate realities...go get a different hobby, feeding the homeless or something.
In most cases the simplest explanation is actually the right explanation. Some of the 9/11 terrorists lived near me (down the street from my buddy) and trained at my local airport. It's a small field, everybody knows everybody else. I also know a guy who trained with Z. Massoui, the 20th hijacker. These were not fictional characters.
Any 2nd-year engineering student can tell you why the towers fell...
They did not get knocked down by the impact of an airliner, their structure is too distrubuted and strong for that.
The heat from the burning jet fuel would not have been enough either.
Ever see that fluffy material that is applied to the steel girders in any large building? That stuff is there to insulate the steel from the heat of a major fire...it is well know (from hard experience over 100 years ago) that steel heated to a certain point loses almost all of it's strength.
The 9/11 attacks involved a combination of circumstances which were not anticipated by anyone including the terrorists (UBL did expect the towers to collapse)....
The airplanes hit at about 500 miles. The tremendous force of this high impact velocity had a cuisinart effect on the airplane, turning into thousands (or tens of thousands of tiny pieces. The spray of these pieces continued through the building at high velocity, basically sandblasting away everything but large structural steel beams...glass, furniture, walls, floors, ceilings, people...and the soft insulating foam on the steel. If you notice, the blast of airplane parts and burning fuel reaches the other side of the building.
So we have removed all of the insulation, and distributed burning jet fuel throughout that section of the structure. Eventually as he fire raged, the steel softened and could no longer hold the part of the building above the impact area. Once that started downward, everything below it would collapse for certain, under the momentum of millions of pounds of falling material.
Loud explosion-like sounds? Ever heard a large steel girder or concrete structure snap in half? I'll bet there were all kinds of "explosion-like" sounds.
Get a grip.
In most cases the simplest explanation is actually the right explanation. Some of the 9/11 terrorists lived near me (down the street from my buddy) and trained at my local airport. It's a small field, everybody knows everybody else. I also know a guy who trained with Z. Massoui, the 20th hijacker. These were not fictional characters.
Any 2nd-year engineering student can tell you why the towers fell...
They did not get knocked down by the impact of an airliner, their structure is too distrubuted and strong for that.
The heat from the burning jet fuel would not have been enough either.
Ever see that fluffy material that is applied to the steel girders in any large building? That stuff is there to insulate the steel from the heat of a major fire...it is well know (from hard experience over 100 years ago) that steel heated to a certain point loses almost all of it's strength.
The 9/11 attacks involved a combination of circumstances which were not anticipated by anyone including the terrorists (UBL did expect the towers to collapse)....
The airplanes hit at about 500 miles. The tremendous force of this high impact velocity had a cuisinart effect on the airplane, turning into thousands (or tens of thousands of tiny pieces. The spray of these pieces continued through the building at high velocity, basically sandblasting away everything but large structural steel beams...glass, furniture, walls, floors, ceilings, people...and the soft insulating foam on the steel. If you notice, the blast of airplane parts and burning fuel reaches the other side of the building.
So we have removed all of the insulation, and distributed burning jet fuel throughout that section of the structure. Eventually as he fire raged, the steel softened and could no longer hold the part of the building above the impact area. Once that started downward, everything below it would collapse for certain, under the momentum of millions of pounds of falling material.
Loud explosion-like sounds? Ever heard a large steel girder or concrete structure snap in half? I'll bet there were all kinds of "explosion-like" sounds.
Get a grip.
06-02-2010, 06:51 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Former 757/767 F/O, now MD-11
Posts: 148
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