joel payne

Pretty good re-creation. Brings up 2 questions for me- 1. Why not turn off the autopilot to begin with? 2. Why not decrease power to #1 and increase 2& 3? Pretty tough airplane!

Shortcut to: LiveLeak.com - China Airlines Flight 006

rickair7777

Good thing it wasn't an airbus.

III Corps

Lots of things WRONG in this video. Reportedly the engine rolled back and the crew failed to notice it. They thought it had flamed out and while they were engrossed in trying to solve the problem, the airplane continued to slow. The autopilot attempted to maintain control until it reached its design limits and then it let go. When that happened, the airplane rolled and began the dive. The airplane never was inverted but it did roll to about 135deg of bank and was heading in the opposite direction at one point.

This was not a Boeing/Airbus issue. It was a combination of factors which is usually the case. Middle of the night, long duration flight, fatigue, incorrect diagnosis of the problem, failure of the crew to assign someone to fly the airplane during trouble shooting and improper recovery.

The airplane landed and post flight inspection found the APU had been torn from its mounts and was laying in the tailcone. The wings had a new and permanent set (which was still within limits. The airplane flew again). The horizontals and vertical suffered some damage.

but to your solution, yes, IF the crew had figured out the problem, they could have asked for a lower altitude or declared an emerg and announced they were going to a lower altitude. They could have increased power on the other engines and re-trimmed. But they didn't and when the autopilot cut loose you can imagine the scene. Horns, lights and a 747 that is rolling rapidly. Tends to widen one's eyes when going from a nice easy evening in the sky to Mr. Toad's Wild Ride.

rickair7777

135 degree bank angles is inverted in my book.

The crew caused this one by not applying rudder during engine out. But when they broke out of the layer they managed to recover an airplane that was aerodynamically already way out of bounds...a testament to their ability and the ruggedness of the 747.

Airbus has had major structural components depart the aircraft during cruise flight...specifically the older designs (but not as old as the 747).

USMCFLYR

If I told a student to roll inverted and pull - and he rolled into a 135 deg bank - I'd knock it off and say "that was a nice overbank, now next time I tell you to roll inverted and pull I mean it!"

I see 'fatigue' was mentioned again. Is there evidence that this crew was fatigued or is this more of throwing out that word because it is important to do so after any mishap? If the video is correct in any sense - didn't it start out by saying that the crew just returned from some 3 hour break?
I hate to see such an important issue continuing overused. It begins to feel like yelling wolf.

No doubt the 747 is a tough bird.

USMCFLYR

rickair7777

Fatigue might have enhanced their confusion...but the root of the problem was not using the rudder. That was just a major brain fart, SOP in transport airplanes with an engine-out is engage the AP asap.

But the yaw damper (the only autopilot-like function for the rudder) will not compensate for engine-out yaw...the pilot has to stomp on the rudder. Once he gets everything stabilized he can trim out the rudder pressure.


IIRC, that UA 747 that almost hit san bruno mountain in SFO wandered off course for the same reason.

dojetdriver

Was it that it "wandered off course", or simply suffered such a lack of climb performance due to the PF's inability to follow one of the most basic/primitive actions that EVERY multi engine qualified pilot knows? IIRC, probably a combination of both. Regardless of whether he's in a two engine underpowered bug smasher or a heavy/swept wing 4 engine transport jet, the SAME action has to be taken if you expect the plane to remain upright and/or climb.

And for satirical purposes, "thank god there weren't "regional pilots". As opposed to ATP/type rated ones. AGAIN, that's for satire.

USMCFLYR

Are you saying that they would have crashed had they not been ATP/Type rated pilots

Rickair7777 - my point about the fatigue (and I haven't read any type of report other than watching this Dicovery channel clip) is that it seems to be a card that is overplayed often. If they just came back from a rest period, if they had just started the aircraft, or if they had been up for 20 hrs straight - fatigue always seems to get thrown in the mix and I think it does a disservice to the mishaps that can be TRULY accountable in part to fatigue. Maybe the professional pilot industry is just chronically fatigued as a whole and no matter what phase of operation the mishap occurs during - fatigue will always be a factor? Now that would be scary.

USMCFLYR

dojetdriver

I'm glad the satire made it through

I know you directed that at Rick, but just from my experience, I'd say that the times I'm working and am "tired" far outweigh the times I'm not. Just due to the nature of the schedules. I exercise regularly, eat healthy, and try to maximize my available sleep time when at work. Even though those three things seem to be a full time job unto themselves. The frequent time zone shifts crammed into a 4 day period take A LOT of effort to combat.

USMCFLYR

[/QUOTE]
I know that fatigue is a HUGE factor. I've done the days/weeks of flying with little if any rest (and the rest you did get was sleeping practicing next to a runway - not good!) But it seems that nowdays even if a mishap occurred on the first flight, of the first day of a trip after having had three days off - fatigue is going to be brought up as a factor. I'm afraid that it has become a catch all causal factor that will lose its' true important through misuse.
I guess some of this depends on what a person's definition of "tired" is too. I get tired when driving down the highway after about 30 minutes without sunglasses on with the sun shining brightly! But it isn't that tiredness that made me forget which was the brake pedal and which was the gas pedal for instance !
I hope new rest rules are put into place soon for the P121/135 industry; but when they are - I wonder how long it will be until a mishap occurs and fatigue is once again listed as causal.

Back on track here and the -747 mishap; anybody watch the entire Discovery Channel show?

USMCFLYR