Flying Cheap- A Special On PBS Feb. 9
02-02-2010, 12:34 AM
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Capt
Posts: 611
Our problems are so much greater than this. It's top down, with the gutting of labor laws and putting corp profits above all else. A guy feeding his family with honest labor is not the enemy.
For what its worth, In the 90's I waited tables nights, dug ditches days... for 2 years while my wife was due with #1, because I wouldn't accept a sub par flying job. But that's me.. I would never blame a guy who was really struggleing.
Again, I digress... on with the thread..
02-02-2010, 04:15 AM
#62
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Posts: 41
02-02-2010, 05:32 AM
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 788
Yes, this critic CAN have it both ways. I worked construction during my 4 furloughs, but I still wouldn't take the interview with American in 1982 because it was for a B scale.
Flying isn't the only way to make a living. Especially, flying that hurts yourself, and everyone's future.
Carl
Flying isn't the only way to make a living. Especially, flying that hurts yourself, and everyone's future.
Carl
If you don't stay in the game, in a year or two you are most likely never going to fly again (if you don't have a recall coming).
If what you did during your furlough worked for you, then I am happy for you.
If you never did a 24 hour/day non sked or a regional, then that is again, congratulations.
I personally have chosen to keep flying after company liquidations and furloughs that I suspected to never be recalled from. Even if it doesn't meet the requirements of others. I do not want to be the old "has been" at Home Depot. If that is ok for others, I do not see myself in a position to criticize them. Hopefully, they will not be critical of my decision either.
02-02-2010, 05:54 AM
#64
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: The Beginnings
Posts: 1,317
Frontline is to good investigative journalism what Howard Zinn's "History of the American People" is to objective historical analysis. It's Michael Moore for television.
Should be interesting to watch this one though. I will say that it's timing is perfectly positioned to support a rule change that will require pilots to live in base. No conspiracy theory here, just an observation. Be careful what you wish for.
02-02-2010, 05:56 AM
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 788
So, let me get this strait... I'm supposed to work at Home Depot because you think I should get paid more to fly an Airbus? (or any A/C for that matter)!
Our problems are so much greater than this. It's top down, with the gutting of labor laws and putting corp profits above all else. A guy feeding his family with honest labor is not the enemy.
For what its worth, In the 90's I waited tables nights, dug ditches days... for 2 years while my wife was due with #1, because I wouldn't accept a sub par flying job. But that's me.. I would never blame a guy who was really struggleing.
Again, I digress... on with the thread..
Our problems are so much greater than this. It's top down, with the gutting of labor laws and putting corp profits above all else. A guy feeding his family with honest labor is not the enemy.
For what its worth, In the 90's I waited tables nights, dug ditches days... for 2 years while my wife was due with #1, because I wouldn't accept a sub par flying job. But that's me.. I would never blame a guy who was really struggleing.
Again, I digress... on with the thread..
You have it figured out. Thumbs up.
Insightful digression is usually helpful to us all.
02-02-2010, 11:10 AM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: awkward
Posts: 239
Frontline is to good investigative journalism what Howard Zinn's "History of the American People" is to objective historical analysis. It's Michael Moore for television.
Should be interesting to watch this one though. I will say that it's timing is perfectly positioned to support a rule change that will require pilots to live in base. No conspiracy theory here, just an observation. Be careful what you wish for.
Should be interesting to watch this one though. I will say that it's timing is perfectly positioned to support a rule change that will require pilots to live in base. No conspiracy theory here, just an observation. Be careful what you wish for.
I wouldn't worry about living in base, although I could imagine your commute eventually counted as duty time, or at least not as rest. I think the show should do a good job of educating the public. Tell everyone to watch it, and then you can tell them to switch right back to FoxNews if you really want to.
02-02-2010, 12:34 PM
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 788
I'm assuming that you haven't watched much Frontline, and that you haven't read A People's History of the United States (history from the loser's point of view, because not everyone gets to win)? Howard Zinn (RIP) didn't claim to tell the whole history; just the stories that you don't hear in a grade school snapshot of history.
I wouldn't worry about living in base, although I could imagine your commute eventually counted as duty time, or at least not as rest. I think the show should do a good job of educating the public. Tell everyone to watch it, and then you can tell them to switch right back to FoxNews if you really want to.
I wouldn't worry about living in base, although I could imagine your commute eventually counted as duty time, or at least not as rest. I think the show should do a good job of educating the public. Tell everyone to watch it, and then you can tell them to switch right back to FoxNews if you really want to.
02-02-2010, 04:03 PM
#68
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl,
Sorry to cloud the issue. I absolutely respect your point of view and your willingness to 'walk the walk'.
But its a different animal to get a job outside of aviation when you've got a number at a Major, and getting the experience you have to have to even get an interview at a major.
To get a job at Southwest you have to have 3000 Turbine PIC,
When CAL and DAL were hiring it was 1000 Turbine PIC.
Airtran recently wanted 500 part 121 PIC.
UPS and FedEx want transoceanic experience.
Where does one get the requisite experience to get one of the 'good' jobs?
Well you could go to a good regional like Eagle or Comair and wait 10+ years for an upgrade - or only 5 if you go to eXpressjet or AirWhiskey. Or go to a dump like Colgan, or Lakes, or Gulfstream, or Mesa. And in months (or maybe right off the street) you can be getting the coveted Turbine PIC - which is the only time that really counts when it comes to getting a job that will pay a wage where you might afford to put your kids through college.
One of the things that rubbed me the wrong way about the Frontline clip is that it was implied that pilots chose to go to Colgan instead of CAL so that they could be Captains quickly instead of being FOs for years, when of course being a Captain at Colgan is essentially the prerequisite to being an FO at CAL.
All other things being equal, flying for CAL is preferred to flying for Expressjet is preferred to flying for Colgan. But other things aren't equal.
Sorry to cloud the issue. I absolutely respect your point of view and your willingness to 'walk the walk'.
But its a different animal to get a job outside of aviation when you've got a number at a Major, and getting the experience you have to have to even get an interview at a major.
To get a job at Southwest you have to have 3000 Turbine PIC,
When CAL and DAL were hiring it was 1000 Turbine PIC.
Airtran recently wanted 500 part 121 PIC.
UPS and FedEx want transoceanic experience.
Where does one get the requisite experience to get one of the 'good' jobs?
Well you could go to a good regional like Eagle or Comair and wait 10+ years for an upgrade - or only 5 if you go to eXpressjet or AirWhiskey. Or go to a dump like Colgan, or Lakes, or Gulfstream, or Mesa. And in months (or maybe right off the street) you can be getting the coveted Turbine PIC - which is the only time that really counts when it comes to getting a job that will pay a wage where you might afford to put your kids through college.
One of the things that rubbed me the wrong way about the Frontline clip is that it was implied that pilots chose to go to Colgan instead of CAL so that they could be Captains quickly instead of being FOs for years, when of course being a Captain at Colgan is essentially the prerequisite to being an FO at CAL.
All other things being equal, flying for CAL is preferred to flying for Expressjet is preferred to flying for Colgan. But other things aren't equal.
I've never understood how some pilots can say: "But how else am I going to get the experience to join a major unless I take this job that is killing the majors' growth - which kills my chance to join a major." Can you not see what a circular argument that is? If your goal is the majors, then flying for a regional is your worst possible choice. If your ulitmate goal is the regionals or corporate or freight, then it makes perfect sense to build your time at a regional. Flying in the military, freight and corporate are terrific ways to build time. And the way the majors are going, you might just find that you never want to leave that military or corporate gig.
Carl
02-02-2010, 04:12 PM
#69
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
So, let me get this strait... I'm supposed to work at Home Depot because you think I should get paid more to fly an Airbus? (or any A/C for that matter)!
Our problems are so much greater than this. It's top down, with the gutting of labor laws and putting corp profits above all else. A guy feeding his family with honest labor is not the enemy.
For what its worth, In the 90's I waited tables nights, dug ditches days... for 2 years while my wife was due with #1, because I wouldn't accept a sub par flying job. But that's me.. I would never blame a guy who was really struggleing.
Again, I digress... on with the thread..
Our problems are so much greater than this. It's top down, with the gutting of labor laws and putting corp profits above all else. A guy feeding his family with honest labor is not the enemy.
For what its worth, In the 90's I waited tables nights, dug ditches days... for 2 years while my wife was due with #1, because I wouldn't accept a sub par flying job. But that's me.. I would never blame a guy who was really struggleing.
Again, I digress... on with the thread..
We're all adults at this point. If you want to build time in order to join corporate, or freight or to be competitive in the military, then the regionals make perfect sense.
I just hate to see guys be there own worst enemy by making a choice that kills the chances of their goal.
Again, not blaming a guy who is really struggling, just saying that he's killing his own future with the majors. And if anyone was really struggling, Home Depot or Wal Mart pays more than the regionals - so struggling is not in play with this debate.
Carl
02-02-2010, 04:13 PM
#70
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Just a reminder. If you did not have that seniority number in your pocket while you worked construction you would have been out of flying permantly.
If you don't stay in the game, in a year or two you are most likely never going to fly again (if you don't have a recall coming).
If what you did during your furlough worked for you, then I am happy for you.
If you never did a 24 hour/day non sked or a regional, then that is again, congratulations.
I personally have chosen to keep flying after company liquidations and furloughs that I suspected to never be recalled from. Even if it doesn't meet the requirements of others. I do not want to be the old "has been" at Home Depot. If that is ok for others, I do not see myself in a position to criticize them. Hopefully, they will not be critical of my decision either.
If you don't stay in the game, in a year or two you are most likely never going to fly again (if you don't have a recall coming).
If what you did during your furlough worked for you, then I am happy for you.
If you never did a 24 hour/day non sked or a regional, then that is again, congratulations.
I personally have chosen to keep flying after company liquidations and furloughs that I suspected to never be recalled from. Even if it doesn't meet the requirements of others. I do not want to be the old "has been" at Home Depot. If that is ok for others, I do not see myself in a position to criticize them. Hopefully, they will not be critical of my decision either.
Carl
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