Flying Cheap- A Special On PBS Feb. 9
02-01-2010, 12:14 PM
#51
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2. Unfettered capitalism? Capitalism, yup, its a good thing and here to stay, I agree.
As to the "unfettered" part..maybe. It's not working out so well in Somalia. A few "fetters" can be a good thing to protect the weak from the uberstrong.
02-01-2010, 02:37 PM
#52
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Posts: 253
Well, I for one am glad they had Roger Cohen on the show. From what I saw on the trailer for the show, they made him look pretty foolish. Hopefully there is more of the same when it airs. I showed the clip to my wife and she was amazed at the stupidity coming out of his mouth...
02-01-2010, 03:24 PM
#53
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Well, I for one am glad they had Roger Cohen on the show. From what I saw on the trailer for the show, they made him look pretty foolish. Hopefully there is more of the same when it airs. I showed the clip to my wife and she was amazed at the stupidity coming out of his mouth...
02-01-2010, 03:58 PM
#54
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Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: A320
Posts: 406
I'm a little confused. As a group, airline pilots tend to be fairly right-wing. Free-market rules, baby. Worth what you negotiate. Hate heavy-handed government. That schmo who is clicking on the lowest fares is doing what capitalism dictates, is he not? If that is not helping the working stiff's paycheck or the quality of his training, well that's tough doo-doo for said stiff, is it not? Funny how some are so right wing EXCEPT when it effects you personally. THEN you scream for government to intervene...
Those are the cards we are dealt. You cannot turn up an ace on every river. You just try to minimize your losses and come out ahead in the overall game. I am not trying to defend the Colgans of the world, but they (and bottom-feeding pax) are playing their cards within the market and the rules presented to them. As long as they are permitted to do so via market forces or permissive regulatory environments, so be it. That is capitalism, and that is the free market.
Those are the cards we are dealt. You cannot turn up an ace on every river. You just try to minimize your losses and come out ahead in the overall game. I am not trying to defend the Colgans of the world, but they (and bottom-feeding pax) are playing their cards within the market and the rules presented to them. As long as they are permitted to do so via market forces or permissive regulatory environments, so be it. That is capitalism, and that is the free market.
If we all are under the NRLA then we are talking free market.
additionally, it is not free market capitalism when a federal bankruptcy judge allows airline management to gut pilot contracts and farm away the flying .
If you want to argue free market then we all must play by free market rules.
right now airline management is more socialist than the BOD comrades of Aeroflot in 1975 and uses goverment help and regulations to keep labor at a disadvantage.
lets even the playing filed. we are all for it. lets remove the RLA and not allow airlines to come out of chapter 11 unless their cba are still whole regarding scope and code sharing and lets change the law to not allow any judge to disregard union contracts while on chapter 11.
we do that, then you can babble free market all you want.
02-01-2010, 04:59 PM
#55
Working Class Dog
Joined APC: Jan 2007
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Posts: 1,668
Didn't Miles Obrien come on here not too long ago and ask for help in this special? Good for those guys for standing up.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...frontline.html
02-01-2010, 06:53 PM
#56
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
There is an implication that if one is hired by a major then they are set. Unfortunately it isn't true. Liquidations, and furloughs for many years, make the majors, for some, just as transient as most freight,corporate or regional jobs. I know of many pilots who have taken any number of jobs, including regionals, just to make ends meet and to keep flying when their major airline job went away.
Ignoring the fact that pretty much no hiring is going on at the majors perhaps ALPA could consider getting in every contract a requirement to hire, at first year wage, ALPA pilots on the street in order of their seniority. If pilot x doesn't want it, offer the class date to the next guy, pilot Y. I am sure there are many flaws to the idea, but it would make ones membership in ALPA extremely valuable and a hedge against the winds of fortune we all have seen. ( to protect the hiring airline, one could be required to resign from the airline furloughed from...many details to be worked out, obviously)
The main point of this ramble is that until the pilot groups are willing to BUY some sense of security for all its members, people will do what it takes to keep flying and to keep working. It's no win for the unemployed..if they take a lousy job they are considered to be hurting their currently employed brothers and sisters(and the future). If they don't take the job then they are considered a leach on society and having some sort of failure of moral fibre. The critics can't have it both ways.
Ignoring the fact that pretty much no hiring is going on at the majors perhaps ALPA could consider getting in every contract a requirement to hire, at first year wage, ALPA pilots on the street in order of their seniority. If pilot x doesn't want it, offer the class date to the next guy, pilot Y. I am sure there are many flaws to the idea, but it would make ones membership in ALPA extremely valuable and a hedge against the winds of fortune we all have seen. ( to protect the hiring airline, one could be required to resign from the airline furloughed from...many details to be worked out, obviously)
The main point of this ramble is that until the pilot groups are willing to BUY some sense of security for all its members, people will do what it takes to keep flying and to keep working. It's no win for the unemployed..if they take a lousy job they are considered to be hurting their currently employed brothers and sisters(and the future). If they don't take the job then they are considered a leach on society and having some sort of failure of moral fibre. The critics can't have it both ways.
Flying isn't the only way to make a living. Especially, flying that hurts yourself, and everyone's future.
Carl
02-01-2010, 08:56 PM
#59
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Position: 777, sofa
Posts: 1,183
Sorry to cloud the issue. I absolutely respect your point of view and your willingness to 'walk the walk'.
But its a different animal to get a job outside of aviation when you've got a number at a Major, and getting the experience you have to have to even get an interview at a major.
To get a job at Southwest you have to have 3000 Turbine PIC,
When CAL and DAL were hiring it was 1000 Turbine PIC.
Airtran recently wanted 500 part 121 PIC.
UPS and FedEx want transoceanic experience.
Where does one get the requisite experience to get one of the 'good' jobs?
Well you could go to a good regional like Eagle or Comair and wait 10+ years for an upgrade - or only 5 if you go to eXpressjet or AirWhiskey. Or go to a dump like Colgan, or Lakes, or Gulfstream, or Mesa. And in months (or maybe right off the street) you can be getting the coveted Turbine PIC - which is the only time that really counts when it comes to getting a job that will pay a wage where you might afford to put your kids through college.
One of the things that rubbed me the wrong way about the Frontline clip is that it was implied that pilots chose to go to Colgan instead of CAL so that they could be Captains quickly instead of being FOs for years, when of course being a Captain at Colgan is essentially the prerequisite to being an FO at CAL.
All other things being equal, flying for CAL is preferred to flying for Expressjet is preferred to flying for Colgan. But other things aren't equal.
02-02-2010, 12:19 AM
#60
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Capt
Posts: 611
I think Frontline does a great job and I look forward to seeing this one.
Any of these...FRONTLINE: video: watch full programs online | PBS
And this one on the Iraq War and the Press... Bill Moyers Journal . Buying the War . Watch the Show | PBS
But I digress... On with the thread
Any of these...FRONTLINE: video: watch full programs online | PBS
And this one on the Iraq War and the Press... Bill Moyers Journal . Buying the War . Watch the Show | PBS
But I digress... On with the thread
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