Flying Cheap- A Special On PBS Feb. 9
02-06-2010, 01:55 PM
#111
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: C47 PIC/747-400 SIC
Posts: 2,100
USAjet has run 2 DC-9 FO classes in the last 60days,they may run a third,IFL is looking for Falcon drivers,Its not a groundswell but glimmers of light are appearing,that market was dead,DEAD,a year ago, unfortunately you are absolutely correct about the check haulers.
02-06-2010, 05:44 PM
#112
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Sorry Carl, I love most of your posts but you are patently wrong here. I flew some of the cargo roach jobs and they're just not around anymore. My last check hauling company had a peak pilot group of 120 and is down to 10 now. Ditto for the on-demand auto haulers. Wanna fly overseas? For the most part better be typed on the equipment with some substantial time in type. EJet pilots need not apply as it does not meet the GW requirements for the better companies. Right seat in some small guy's King Air or Citation? You bet, go to CAE, pop out 7-10K for your own SIC training and I'll pay ya 25K per year for the privilege, son.
Trust me, I fly a small narrowbody that happens to be built by Brazilians and I'm terrified of further outsourcing. But instead of preaching from the top of the hill to these guys about taking down the industry, how about fixing our own houses and getting that flying on our lists where it belongs? In the not-too-distant past part of your former co. flew Convair 580s all the way up to 757s. Get that stuff back on the property where it belongs.
Trust me, I fly a small narrowbody that happens to be built by Brazilians and I'm terrified of further outsourcing. But instead of preaching from the top of the hill to these guys about taking down the industry, how about fixing our own houses and getting that flying on our lists where it belongs? In the not-too-distant past part of your former co. flew Convair 580s all the way up to 757s. Get that stuff back on the property where it belongs.
The point is that many many pilots have chosen the regionals even in the boom times prior to this recession. That's the point. As I've said, those that made that decision because they wanted a career at the regionals, well that made a lot of sense. Same if their goal was corporate, freight, etc. It was and is a terrible choice if your goal is a major...for all the reasons I've said many times before.
Carl
02-06-2010, 05:49 PM
#113
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
I think that the easiest cure would be to pass the congressional proposal that no codeshare airline would be made to look like another mainline operator. Regionals have made their money by making their uniforms and paint jobs look like Continental, United, Delta, and Northwest. If a passenger buys a ticket on Continental and finds him/herself on a turboprop that says "Generic Air" and pilots that aren't masquerading as Continental pilots, they'll look closer at their ticket purchase next time.
I'm sure I've offended somebody. I am not berating regional pilots, I am only saying that there wouldn't be any cost advantage for the majors if they weren't allowed to slap their name and uniforms on lower cost labor. Most people that have friends and relatives that are in the business don't even mention a regional airline name, they just say "I have a nephew/neice that works as a pilot/flight attendant for Delta/Continental/United." You ask a couple of more questions, and they say "I think it's a subsidiary. I don't know the name of the company." If your relatives don't know who you work for, I can promise you that the general public doesn't either.
The whole "size of the jet" argument isn't really that important, the branding and misdirection is. That's why Republic wanted so badly to buy Midwest and Frontier - positive brand names, slap some paint on an aircraft and some different uniforms on your labor....voila.
I'm sure I've offended somebody. I am not berating regional pilots, I am only saying that there wouldn't be any cost advantage for the majors if they weren't allowed to slap their name and uniforms on lower cost labor. Most people that have friends and relatives that are in the business don't even mention a regional airline name, they just say "I have a nephew/neice that works as a pilot/flight attendant for Delta/Continental/United." You ask a couple of more questions, and they say "I think it's a subsidiary. I don't know the name of the company." If your relatives don't know who you work for, I can promise you that the general public doesn't either.
The whole "size of the jet" argument isn't really that important, the branding and misdirection is. That's why Republic wanted so badly to buy Midwest and Frontier - positive brand names, slap some paint on an aircraft and some different uniforms on your labor....voila.
People might think twice if their ticket was forced to say "Al's tire, lube, and regional airline service" instead of the mainline brand that has taken so many years to build.
Carl
02-06-2010, 06:59 PM
#114
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: Fifth floor, window
Posts: 290
That's right....when you buy packaged food its required to list the ingredients, the nutritional value, etc. Now might that work for airlines?
XXX Airline has ticketed you aboard a XZZ aircraft, operated and owned by XYZ company, a company XXX subcontracts to. The pilots and cabin crew are trained by XYZ. The aircraft is maintained by XYZ. XXX airline will not be liable for anything that occurs while traveling on XYZ. XYZ airline only resembles and masquerades as XXX airline.
XXX Airline has ticketed you aboard a XZZ aircraft, operated and owned by XYZ company, a company XXX subcontracts to. The pilots and cabin crew are trained by XYZ. The aircraft is maintained by XYZ. XXX airline will not be liable for anything that occurs while traveling on XYZ. XYZ airline only resembles and masquerades as XXX airline.
02-06-2010, 08:01 PM
#115
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Well I don't want to get in to a contest of who is patently wrong, but if you look at climbto350 and/or the many contract agencies that are hiring for the foreign carriers, there are still opportunities. The positions are leaner with our recession to be certain, but things are lean everywhere.
The point is that many many pilots have chosen the regionals even in the boom times prior to this recession. That's the point. As I've said, those that made that decision because they wanted a career at the regionals, well that made a lot of sense. Same if their goal was corporate, freight, etc. It was and is a terrible choice if your goal is a major...for all the reasons I've said many times before.
Carl
The point is that many many pilots have chosen the regionals even in the boom times prior to this recession. That's the point. As I've said, those that made that decision because they wanted a career at the regionals, well that made a lot of sense. Same if their goal was corporate, freight, etc. It was and is a terrible choice if your goal is a major...for all the reasons I've said many times before.
Carl
Carl,
Unfortuantely there is a reason for that. I had a choice between a 91k frac or a 121 regional (which flew under NW airlink and operated CRJ-200s..that should narrow it down).
The regional paid more, had better work rules, was pure jet 121, and was growing like a weed (literally). What do you think was the logical choice?
Granted, that was during the earlier boom years when the shartball was just beginning to really get rolling downhill for the regional world taking over mainline flying.
When I began operating a 50 seat regional jet on routes where I used to ride in a DC-10-40 ... the whipsaw had obviously reached it's swing.
When I got hired there, I was hoping the 50 would be the limit that would be allowed along with the oddball and inefficient ARJ's. Thank you, 1113c for pushing my mainline upgrade back for a decade.
02-06-2010, 08:49 PM
#116
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Posts: 638
Carl,
Unfortuantely there is a reason for that. I had a choice between a 91k frac or a 121 regional (which flew under NW airlink and operated CRJ-200s..that should narrow it down).
The regional paid more, had better work rules, was pure jet 121, and was growing like a weed (literally). What do you think was the logical choice?
Granted, that was during the earlier boom years when the shartball was just beginning to really get rolling downhill for the regional world taking over mainline flying.
When I began operating a 50 seat regional jet on routes where I used to ride in a DC-10-40 ... the whipsaw had obviously reached it's swing.
When I got hired there, I was hoping the 50 would be the limit that would be allowed along with the oddball and inefficient ARJ's. Thank you, 1113c for pushing my mainline upgrade back for a decade.
Unfortuantely there is a reason for that. I had a choice between a 91k frac or a 121 regional (which flew under NW airlink and operated CRJ-200s..that should narrow it down).
The regional paid more, had better work rules, was pure jet 121, and was growing like a weed (literally). What do you think was the logical choice?
Granted, that was during the earlier boom years when the shartball was just beginning to really get rolling downhill for the regional world taking over mainline flying.
When I began operating a 50 seat regional jet on routes where I used to ride in a DC-10-40 ... the whipsaw had obviously reached it's swing.
When I got hired there, I was hoping the 50 would be the limit that would be allowed along with the oddball and inefficient ARJ's. Thank you, 1113c for pushing my mainline upgrade back for a decade.
It wasn't until the bankruptcies that major scope relief came and the music finally stopped. Everyone realized we were played for fools too late and now we're stuck with it. Blaming the majors pilots or the regional pilots is like blaming wall street or main street for the current economic collapse. They offered crazy stupid loans but we signed on the dotted line. The only ones that knew what was going on was the execs of our airlines who knew exactly how to work the system to get what they wanted. And we should ALL be ashamed of ourselves for letting a few snooty Harvard grads for get us over a barrel.
02-06-2010, 09:45 PM
#117
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Fero's
Posts: 472
Good points iPilot. We need to stop blaming each other.
Carl is right though - If you go to work for a regional today, in hopes of landing a major job, you are shooting yourself in the foot. Because you've just taken that major job you wanted... A classic catch 22...
Carl is right though - If you go to work for a regional today, in hopes of landing a major job, you are shooting yourself in the foot. Because you've just taken that major job you wanted... A classic catch 22...
02-07-2010, 01:58 AM
#118
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
Well I don't want to get in to a contest of who is patently wrong, but if you look at climbto350 and/or the many contract agencies that are hiring for the foreign carriers, there are still opportunities. The positions are leaner with our recession to be certain, but things are lean everywhere.
The point is that many many pilots have chosen the regionals even in the boom times prior to this recession. That's the point. As I've said, those that made that decision because they wanted a career at the regionals, well that made a lot of sense. Same if their goal was corporate, freight, etc. It was and is a terrible choice if your goal is a major...for all the reasons I've said many times before.
Carl
The point is that many many pilots have chosen the regionals even in the boom times prior to this recession. That's the point. As I've said, those that made that decision because they wanted a career at the regionals, well that made a lot of sense. Same if their goal was corporate, freight, etc. It was and is a terrible choice if your goal is a major...for all the reasons I've said many times before.
Carl
The mainlines have spoken: if it ain't 121 time and you have not kissed one of our pilots arse enough to get an internal rec, you are screwed.
Please, Carl, tell us all how you made it to a mainline. Tell us so we can all fallow your golden path.
02-08-2010, 05:47 AM
#119
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
Carl, no one is paid "slave wages" in this country. They are paid market wages as are you. The fact that you don't think it is enough does not change the fact that the market sets those wages. That people are still lining up to take those regional jobs proves the theory.
I'm not advocating the pay rates just recognizing the environment in which we live. Stomping ones feet and proclamations from on high do not change the fact. The question remains on how to reverse the market trends that have depressed our compensation.
I see two ways to do so. Both require government action and the Colgan crash have highlighted them. First is to require an ATP to fly any Part 121 pilot position. No exception for academic hours should be allowed. Nothing replaces experience. It would also have the effect of reducing the pool of perspective applicants thus increasing competition for those applicants thus increasing the market value of labor. Second is to eliminate the code share among domestic carriers. I'm not talking about international JVs. Code sharing among domestic carriers is pure subcontracting. AF or KLM can't fly pax from NYC to LAS so a code share with DAL makes sense. Having Colgan or ASA or Republic fly pax from NYC to LAS, routes that DAL, CAL, et al are legally able and should be flying does not make sense to anyone but major corporate bean counters.
Now I'm not against corporate bean counters per se and I do watch Fox News so I'm no Samuel Gompers. The government has a legitimate interest in upholding truth in advertising and air safety rules. We, union labor, have a legitimate interest in providing to management that we have a market based solution to outsourcing based on brand ID and quality control.
So in conclusion, to denigrate a regional guy because he took a job at market rates because it depresses your pay is disingenuous at best and very self serving. It ain't joe regional guys fault just like it's the bacteria's fault for growing on your counter. Organisms thrive in the right environment. To kill them you have to change that environment.
I'm not advocating the pay rates just recognizing the environment in which we live. Stomping ones feet and proclamations from on high do not change the fact. The question remains on how to reverse the market trends that have depressed our compensation.
I see two ways to do so. Both require government action and the Colgan crash have highlighted them. First is to require an ATP to fly any Part 121 pilot position. No exception for academic hours should be allowed. Nothing replaces experience. It would also have the effect of reducing the pool of perspective applicants thus increasing competition for those applicants thus increasing the market value of labor. Second is to eliminate the code share among domestic carriers. I'm not talking about international JVs. Code sharing among domestic carriers is pure subcontracting. AF or KLM can't fly pax from NYC to LAS so a code share with DAL makes sense. Having Colgan or ASA or Republic fly pax from NYC to LAS, routes that DAL, CAL, et al are legally able and should be flying does not make sense to anyone but major corporate bean counters.
Now I'm not against corporate bean counters per se and I do watch Fox News so I'm no Samuel Gompers. The government has a legitimate interest in upholding truth in advertising and air safety rules. We, union labor, have a legitimate interest in providing to management that we have a market based solution to outsourcing based on brand ID and quality control.
So in conclusion, to denigrate a regional guy because he took a job at market rates because it depresses your pay is disingenuous at best and very self serving. It ain't joe regional guys fault just like it's the bacteria's fault for growing on your counter. Organisms thrive in the right environment. To kill them you have to change that environment.
02-08-2010, 07:08 AM
#120
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: CRJ Captain
Posts: 1,406
when they interview that cohen guy who is the head of the regional airline association, he can't even answer the questions without blinking 1,000,000 times - he says that its only 50 dollars in newark for a hotel room, blah blah blah blah blah - i hope a lot of people watch this.
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