Working the ramp = future flying job?
12-22-2009, 05:44 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: O-2 pilot
Posts: 123
I would say that working on the ground probably won't get you hired much faster, but in general it helps to get you hired eventually.
I worked the ramp for United Feeder Service and Mesaba from 1993-1998. I also flight instructed at the same airport. It was a good fit. I built flying experience and airline experience at the same time. I think it helps a lot to be a good airline pilot to know the ground operations and company culture. You're more integrated into the whole system. You learn how coordinate better and fit into the whole scheme of things. You would be surprised how much better schedules can be maintained as a pilot if you can have a better understanding how to communicate and coordinate with ground personel.
Anyway, I was able to interview with Mesaba when I reached just over the minimum hours. It was 1000 hours total time in 1998. I also had a graduate degree and all the normal requirements. The interview went fine, but they wanted to see a few more hours out of me before making me a pilot. Later I found out that they told other employees the same thing. I think it was because they wanted to make sure employees made it through the training and wouldn't have to be sent back to the ramp. A few months later I was hired with about 1300 total and a couple hundred multi. So, I wasn't hired with the absolute minimums, but I'm sure having worked for Mesaba already helped me to get hired eventually. One perk I was suppossed to get was a reimbursement for having to pay for a simulator evaluation (Comair did them for Mesaba at that time), but I don't think I ever did get that check.
I agree that it helps to rub shoulders with the pilots. One of the pilots at U.F.S. loved to fly and would fly with me on his long over-nights. For a while U.F.S did aircraft training at night with the overnighting aircraft and they would let me jump seat during training. It helps give you some idea of how a multi crew cockpit works, etc.
Next week I'll start work for my 4th airline (AWAC). I have about 5000 hours of which 3600 are part-121. And, yes, I'll be working as a part-time ramp agent. My goal is to get a pilot job with Air Wisconsin. Starting from the ground up has worked for me before. Personally I recommend it.
I worked the ramp for United Feeder Service and Mesaba from 1993-1998. I also flight instructed at the same airport. It was a good fit. I built flying experience and airline experience at the same time. I think it helps a lot to be a good airline pilot to know the ground operations and company culture. You're more integrated into the whole system. You learn how coordinate better and fit into the whole scheme of things. You would be surprised how much better schedules can be maintained as a pilot if you can have a better understanding how to communicate and coordinate with ground personel.
Anyway, I was able to interview with Mesaba when I reached just over the minimum hours. It was 1000 hours total time in 1998. I also had a graduate degree and all the normal requirements. The interview went fine, but they wanted to see a few more hours out of me before making me a pilot. Later I found out that they told other employees the same thing. I think it was because they wanted to make sure employees made it through the training and wouldn't have to be sent back to the ramp. A few months later I was hired with about 1300 total and a couple hundred multi. So, I wasn't hired with the absolute minimums, but I'm sure having worked for Mesaba already helped me to get hired eventually. One perk I was suppossed to get was a reimbursement for having to pay for a simulator evaluation (Comair did them for Mesaba at that time), but I don't think I ever did get that check.
I agree that it helps to rub shoulders with the pilots. One of the pilots at U.F.S. loved to fly and would fly with me on his long over-nights. For a while U.F.S did aircraft training at night with the overnighting aircraft and they would let me jump seat during training. It helps give you some idea of how a multi crew cockpit works, etc.
Next week I'll start work for my 4th airline (AWAC). I have about 5000 hours of which 3600 are part-121. And, yes, I'll be working as a part-time ramp agent. My goal is to get a pilot job with Air Wisconsin. Starting from the ground up has worked for me before. Personally I recommend it.
12-23-2009, 04:40 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,750
Being a ramp agent for any airline is a good way into the door. My first job in aviation was working ramp and gates and other things in ZRH and I got to know a ton of pilots and F/As and other airport people who are lifelong friends now. And I learned a lot about the business I never would have known about had I simply gotten my certificates and gotten a flying job. All that knowledge can't help but make someone a better pilot.
The F/A route is not bad either. I know at my airline at least one captain who had been a United F/A for years before flying. The other good thing about that choice is that then you really know what the lifestyle will be like (crappy) and you can know what you're getting into.
But like the others, I can't recommend highly enough working in the airline world in some capacity before you get your first pilot job. It'll make you a better pilot because you see the 'Big Picture' better.
The F/A route is not bad either. I know at my airline at least one captain who had been a United F/A for years before flying. The other good thing about that choice is that then you really know what the lifestyle will be like (crappy) and you can know what you're getting into.
But like the others, I can't recommend highly enough working in the airline world in some capacity before you get your first pilot job. It'll make you a better pilot because you see the 'Big Picture' better.
12-23-2009, 06:04 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Position: Missionary
Posts: 309
3Green...some great advice, (and some not so great 
)...like to add, although most majors aren't hiring F/A's right now, if you're shooting for one in particular, it could be a GREAT way to get your foot in the door. Any part121 carrier job will help, but as Boomer pointed out, you'll get to know the pilots who can only help when hiring starts. Wouldn't recommend regional F/A...less pay, worse hours, and a benefit for working as a major F/A is during down time,(down-time is almost non-existent at the regionals) you can go to the cockpit and see 1st-hand how things work (invaluable)! Learn, ask questions, and network...besides, alot of the major pilots were regional guys, and sometimes their acquaintances at the regional that flys for your airline are now running the show (Chief Pilots, etc.)
Just something to think about.
)...like to add, although most majors aren't hiring F/A's right now, if you're shooting for one in particular, it could be a GREAT way to get your foot in the door. Any part121 carrier job will help, but as Boomer pointed out, you'll get to know the pilots who can only help when hiring starts. Wouldn't recommend regional F/A...less pay, worse hours, and a benefit for working as a major F/A is during down time,(down-time is almost non-existent at the regionals) you can go to the cockpit and see 1st-hand how things work (invaluable)! Learn, ask questions, and network...besides, alot of the major pilots were regional guys, and sometimes their acquaintances at the regional that flys for your airline are now running the show (Chief Pilots, etc.)Just something to think about.
12-23-2009, 08:40 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: CL-65 FO
Posts: 120
I threw bags for Air Wisconsin at ORD for almost 2.5 years. I made friends with Air Whiskey pilots, but I had to be the one to make the effort to get to know them. One of my friends I met as a ramper is even making the effort to come to town for my wedding next month. I got to know the chief pilot and he helped me get my first airline pilot job after we both left Air Wisconsin.
I don't fly for Air Wisconsin, but I can tell you that I was able to draw on my experiences at pilot interviews. I know how things work from the ground up. I don't take crap from any ramper about how they can't do this or that, or just don't know how. I'll tell them to get the lav cart, and I'll meet you outside and tell you exactly how to do it. At ORD, there is a good chance the guy making excuses is someone I trained, so that excuse never flies. At the same time, when you come across one of the hard working guys you know, you will always get great ramp service.
Work hard, make some friends and hopefully they will help you out down the road.
I don't fly for Air Wisconsin, but I can tell you that I was able to draw on my experiences at pilot interviews. I know how things work from the ground up. I don't take crap from any ramper about how they can't do this or that, or just don't know how. I'll tell them to get the lav cart, and I'll meet you outside and tell you exactly how to do it. At ORD, there is a good chance the guy making excuses is someone I trained, so that excuse never flies. At the same time, when you come across one of the hard working guys you know, you will always get great ramp service.
Work hard, make some friends and hopefully they will help you out down the road.
12-23-2009, 08:56 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: 73N
Posts: 863
I agree that being an FA or ramper will help you, but why work for a regional, I'm sure you probably want to move on from there. I would get a ramp or FA job at the major you like most. I'll bet they have better pay and benefits as well.
12-23-2009, 08:57 AM
#18
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,406
OK, serious suggestion despite the way it sounds...
Apply as a flight attendant at the airline of your choice.
If you really want to hang with pilots and learn about the airline while you build time and a good work history, the closest employees at the company are the F/As.
After a few trips you will get to know the pilots much better than being a wingwalker or working in the bag sorting shack.
The pilots that write the recommendations will remember a good F/A much better than a good fueler.
As a tug driver you'll never hang out with pilots at dinner or on the hotel van; as a F/A you will. Ask any pilot on here if he can name a dozen rampers at his airline, and compare to how many F/As they can name.
On the other side of the coin, if you find that being tied to a pager, commuting, living out of hotels and crashpads, working crappy hours and holidays, and reduced rest overnights are not to your liking, better to find out after a couple months as a F/A than after investing thousands in training and years building time going the airline pilot route.
Your CRM skills will be much better as a crewmember than as a rampie. And when you transition to the front of the plane someday, you will be a much better pilot for knowing what goes on behind that door.
Finally, if you're a single straight guy, there tend to be a lot of eligible females among the F/A ranks. A lack of rainbows on your overnight bag and a lack of "flair" on your uniform would help you stand out amongst the male F/A crowd. Or so I've heard. (Nevermind, I see now you're married. We posted at the same time.)
In any case, Good Luck!
Apply as a flight attendant at the airline of your choice.
If you really want to hang with pilots and learn about the airline while you build time and a good work history, the closest employees at the company are the F/As.
After a few trips you will get to know the pilots much better than being a wingwalker or working in the bag sorting shack.
The pilots that write the recommendations will remember a good F/A much better than a good fueler.
As a tug driver you'll never hang out with pilots at dinner or on the hotel van; as a F/A you will. Ask any pilot on here if he can name a dozen rampers at his airline, and compare to how many F/As they can name.
On the other side of the coin, if you find that being tied to a pager, commuting, living out of hotels and crashpads, working crappy hours and holidays, and reduced rest overnights are not to your liking, better to find out after a couple months as a F/A than after investing thousands in training and years building time going the airline pilot route.
Your CRM skills will be much better as a crewmember than as a rampie. And when you transition to the front of the plane someday, you will be a much better pilot for knowing what goes on behind that door.
Finally, if you're a single straight guy, there tend to be a lot of eligible females among the F/A ranks. A lack of rainbows on your overnight bag and a lack of "flair" on your uniform would help you stand out amongst the male F/A crowd. Or so I've heard. (Nevermind, I see now you're married. We posted at the same time.)
In any case, Good Luck!
The problem with FA is you will end up commuting to reserve at the crappiest domicile...you are going to do that anyway when you get the pilot job, but why do it twice?
Almost any pilot will take the time to talk to you once you tell them you are an experienced CFI.
12-23-2009, 09:49 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: ERJ
Posts: 211
You need to look at it both ways.
Basically, if they know your entire goal is to become a pilot at said airline, why would they waste their time training you? For you to transfer out of their department and leave them hanging?
I am facing the same thing. I am furloughed from a regional, got an offer to interview at another regional for FA and ramp, but they are hesitant to hire me because they know I am a pilot. They want me to sign a longevity contract, which might make me miss the pilot hiring slot at said regional. Also, if I get a different flying job and leave the ramp or FA - why would this company hire me back when I applied for pilot at a later date?
It looks like I'll be collecting unemployment for awhile....I don't want to burn any bridges and leave a regional for a "temporary" flying job.
It can come back to bite you in the butt, so just be prepared.
Basically, if they know your entire goal is to become a pilot at said airline, why would they waste their time training you? For you to transfer out of their department and leave them hanging?
I am facing the same thing. I am furloughed from a regional, got an offer to interview at another regional for FA and ramp, but they are hesitant to hire me because they know I am a pilot. They want me to sign a longevity contract, which might make me miss the pilot hiring slot at said regional. Also, if I get a different flying job and leave the ramp or FA - why would this company hire me back when I applied for pilot at a later date?
It looks like I'll be collecting unemployment for awhile....I don't want to burn any bridges and leave a regional for a "temporary" flying job.
It can come back to bite you in the butt, so just be prepared.
12-23-2009, 05:01 PM
#20
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: Soon to be Unemployment Line?
Posts: 43
Can't speak for the pilot side. But for me I started working the ramp, moved to the brake and tire shop, and then on to the heavy mx hgr for another two years. I used all this time to submit to the FAA for an authorization to test for my A&P. I'm now proud to be a licensed mechanic. It worked good for me trying to raise a family and get a education at the same time.
Yes the regionals pay is not the best, but I have a license for life now and can use that anywhere life may take me. Hopefully the industry makes a turnaround soon and us professionals, mechanics and pilots can get paid what we are worth!!
Yes the regionals pay is not the best, but I have a license for life now and can use that anywhere life may take me. Hopefully the industry makes a turnaround soon and us professionals, mechanics and pilots can get paid what we are worth!!
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