UAL T38 Phlyer

Nav:

I've watched your posts over the last week or so. You sound like me when I was your age (guessing here)...love everything about flying, and would do almost anything to do it.

Except, you don't want overnights, or military, or props...you want a perfect jet-job, with no strings attached.

Those jobs generally don't exist, and when they do, you have to pay your dues to get to them. Kind of like a teen-ager I counseled a few years ago: he wasn't doing so well in school, and I was trying to motivate him. I asked him what he wanted to be when he grew up. "A Professional Skate-Boarder." I asked him to name a few, which he did. Then I had to point out to him there were at least 3 million boys his age who wanted one of those 5 or 6 jobs. (The odds were against it).

I've been flying for 33 years, and still love it. But I also know it takes endless study, a lot of sitting doing nothing, working when I have other problems to deal with, career instability, LOTS of time away from home (and sometimes that is a welcome relief ), in short, un-ending dedication. Aviation is a harsh mistress.

But: would I do it again? Yeah, it is who I am. Live to fly; fly to live.

I accept the hardships that go with it. Maybe my view would be different, had I not been able to get fairly financially stable prior to the industry's current collapse. And, Cubdriver is right: most of the guys on this forum are here because they are looking for a job, or a better job!

YOU should go into aviation if you have a realistic view of the good AND the bad. (Kind of like marriage).

If you go into it hoping to avoid any unpleasantries, you are sure to be disappointed and ultimately disgruntled...and end up sounding like some of the bitter nay-sayers on this forum.

Good luck. You'll make the right decision.

SkyHigh

Yea, What Rickair777 said. I would also like to add that a lot of people are currently stuck in the profession. It is not easy to start over. Aviation training and experience does not offer much cross over value to other professions.

It is my belief that most become pilots because they love to fly but also because they think that they will be the exception. Most think that they will be the one who gets on with SWA a few years out of college. Why else would anyone choose to take on 200k in college and training expenses for a profession that has the promise to pay a little better than what a mailman makes.

The truth is that fate, contacts and circumstances play the biggest role in where a pilot career ends up. The odds are that most will struggle no matter how good they think they are or how hard they are prepared to work. Most of our fate as pilots is out of our hands and in the control of business executives.

200K break down:

My local state university quotes $21,500 per year in bare bones housing, tuition and books. No spring break trips or skiing lessons just a bed, cafeteria food and other educational expenses. Add to that another estimated 65 to 80k to get through a professional flight academy and things add up fast.

And your costs as a professional pilot are not over on graduation day. After that there are potential ATP, type rating, CFII and MEI add on costs. Not to mention the opportunity cost of what you could be doing for a living instead.


Skyhigh

bcrosier

I'll second what Rickair7777 and Skyhigh said, particularly the part about getting out being very difficult to do - particularly when you are a bit older and have a mortgage, family, ect.

Many of us who complain are somewhat bitter because the career is NOT what we signed up for when we got into it. When I started, the typical progression was CFI for a couple of years to get at LEAST 1000 hours, then some part 135 flying to bring your time to 2000-3000, then fly at the regionals a few more years for turbine time, then a shot at the majors. When you got to the majors, you were pretty much set. After year one, you had good income, reasonable job security, and a good retirement. There were the early danger signs - Braniff, Eastern, PanAm, and such, but by and large it was a pretty good proposition.

This is the deal we "signed up for." Now, we have multiple airline failures and bankruptcies in which wages, stability, and retirement have been stolen. Stability is gone (partially due to shortsightedness on the part of some pilot groups), flying is being outsourced to the lowest bidder, and almost daily I read of Junior Birdmen on this site and others who see nothing wrong with working for poverty level wages as long as they get to fly and airplane, which only perpetuates the further demise of the terms and conditions which we are all subject to. This is NOT the deal we (I) signed up for.

Don't get me wrong, I like the crews I work with, I enjoy the flying I do, and I enjoy operating the aircraft. I don't like being away from home for weeks at a time, and I have NO confidence that the industry will see any substantive improvement soon, nor that any improvement which occurs will be sustained.

If I had it to do over again I might still become a pilot, but I'd definitely get a degree in something completely outside of aviation (perhaps pharmacy), which would provide a viable exit strategy.

lakehouse

Now for those that are smart the new model looks like this, DONT CFI, FLY JUMPERs, find a dropzone with a C182, get to 1000 hours in that, do what ever it takes to let them let you fly it, even if you gotta learn to pack and do that to start. After 1000 hours if your dropzone does not have a turbine, go fly at a 182 op with turbines, once you get 1200-1500 hours get checked out in the turbine, now get turbine time, once you have another 1000 hours of turbine time, get corporate job in kingair, keep getting corporate time, find good job in corporate flying as pic, make solid money by 30, be happy

Ewfflyer

Unless you are on NWA 188, most people are posting these "happy" posts are not flying at this moment

Seriously though, Aviation has become a much tougher and tighter industry. The jobs and pay aren't what they used to be. Most folks started into this with the love, and facination with flight. Once that turned into a "job" it loses that passion.

What I think most are trying to do is get you to realize it can become a great career, but you must be willing to sacrifice financial gains, location, and relationships(can be tough to maintain) due to the things it takes to move up in this career field. Keep your options open, and learn all you can. Good luck with whatever you decide.

bcrosier

Again, maybe it's just me, but if you have to sacrifice all of that - can it really be called a great career? I always thought the goal was work to live, not live to work. If I'm missing sarcasm on your part, please forgive me.

Ewfflyer

Some sarcasm yes, there are still sacrifices that we "might" have to make, but I was merely giving examples of things we should be prepared to consider. I'm just trying to highlight the possiblities, not that they will all come true.

To ensure I had a job out of college, I moved from IN to MI to flight instruct, leaving everything I knew to start out. I ended up back in IN with my freight job, got married, lived in OH for 6 months, then back to IN, then got my dream job(and still here). It worked out for me, but I had to take those first steps to get where I am now.

abelenky

I think people just like to complain about their jobs, and not just in the airline industry. That's why our jobs are called "work", and not "fun".

I'm not a professional pilot. I fly for fun, and am a professional computer programmer. I come to the flight school, and complain about my job, and how cool it would be to fly for a living, while all the pilots complain about their jobs, and talk about how cool it'd be to have my job instead.

So, while professional flying definitely has drawbacks, so does every job. I wouldn't take comments here as an indictment of flying, but rather a grain of salt to evaluate along with the rewards of the job.

FlyJSH

If you intend on CFIing, flying "The Beast" (the Caravan), and maybe a twin somewhere along the way, tjhen GOOD FOR YOU! Your plan is what airline pilots should take. Start small, go a little bigger, and some multi, THEN start flying people in a turboprop.

Also, if you are asking how one gets 200k in debt, that is good too. Too many folks go to a "name brand" school, get the degree and the tickets, and have a ton of debt. For me, the goal was to end my training at zero dollars: no debt.

Why is it hard? Because two days after Orville flew, there was a line of people wanting for jobs. Today there are some 6000=8000 pilots out of work who have hundreds or thousands of hours, and you are competing with them. No matter what your hours are, there is always someone who has better hours.... how you distinguish yourself is the secret to success.

Flying is probably a close second to being a professional athlete: everyone THINKS they can do it, but only those who are willing to throw 10,000 passes before they get on the field are the ones who succeed.

lakehouse

Finally a useful post on this forum, +1 to you, -1 to the turds who got out of xxx flight school sat in an RJ for 2 years and are now 25 married with a house kid and crying hey cant take a job flying jumpers for 14k a year, CFIin for 15K, or surveying for 18k, and instead on unemployment for 16k..........you are the jokers my friends