Moose

Aeronauticstud? Nice!

AEROLINK

bgmann---

I guess any time the term UFO is invoked any conversation to follow tends toward being less than serious. I don't believe this was anything more that what was reported by the pilots. However, the questions remain: what exactly was it, how did he manage to enter controlled airspace without detection by ATC, and most important- what was he doing there in the first place? I haven't seen any follow-up in the news or elsewhere on this. At one point during the search, I recall one of the PD 'copters saying that the guy was apparently gone.... Wonder if FAA or other higher level agency follows up on these kinds of violations.
Perhaps all the guys that might have the answers would NEVER click on this thread because of the "UFO" reference in the title....

bgmann

sorry for using the wrong terminology, sir. But it was a Flying Object that we couldn't Identify.

AEROLINK

bgmann,

I apologize if my comments seemed critical of your terminology. It was certainly not meant to sound that way. I agree that Unidentifed Flying Object is an appropriate description, since no one seems certain on what the actual aircraft was.
The point I was making was that it seems that a lot of folks weren't taking the whole thing seriously. I totally agree with you when you said " maybe you should consider it a major security threat as he could have dropped a package " and "It aint cool that tower didnt know there was an 'aircraft' until pilots reported him over them after it just flew over the numbers of 22L and 22R and hovered 20feet over the cargo tarmac". Those are my feeling exactly...maybe we'll never know for sure............

UAL T38 Phlyer

Aero:

Pardon my lack of faith and skepticism, but I suspect that you are actually a journalist, not a lifetime student pilot (your first post here was about this incident).

Unlike TV and Movies, where the government is intrinsically evil, and has fantastic technology where cell-phone signals never get dropped, are always crystal-clear, where radar sees everything, and Jack Bauer kills every bad guy just before the commercial break, in the real world, it is easy to disappear.

Radar: Air-Traffic radar has a hard time seeing airplanes of airliner size close to the ground (look up ground-clutter on Wikipedia). If this guy was in either an ultralight or autogyro, his radar cross-section would be very small....even tougher.

That's why aircraft that intend to be seen on radar use a transponder...a device that makes it easier to be identified on radar.

(I saw a laughable episode of CSI Las Vegas last week [the wife was watching] where a crime was commited by an ultralight...and they conveniently squawked so "McCarren Tower" could track them as forensic evidence).

JFK Tower: while tower controllers have a short-range radar (usually) at their disposal, it has the same limitations as above. Most traffic separation is based upon them seeing the airplane they are talking to, or procedural separation if they do not yet see him.

At night, pilots who intend to cooperate with the ATC system will have lights on.

Police Helicopters: I guess every burglar I've seen on COPS who got away on-foot had stealth sneakers. Fact is, police helos don't have radar, and it would be tough to find an ultralight or autogyro if they did, in the ground clutter. Infrared might help, but there's a lot of heat sources around a city...they all show up. And, it's a narrow field of view...kind of like sitting in a stadium of 20,000 with a pair of binoculars and being told: "Find the topless girl...she's over there, someplace."

Even a pulse-doppler radar like a modern fighter has would have a tough time. Anything that moves at the same speed as your "suspect" (ie, cars, busses, trains) would show up as well.

Eyeballs-only at night? Rods and cones...limitation of the species.

There you have it: no mystery. Somebody, for reasons unknown, deliberately flew (my opinion) an ultralight or autogyro (since it was reported he 'hovered') into JFK airspace, with no lights and no squawk. Practical joke, or a test for terrorism? Anyone's guess.

How did he get away? Small aircraft, no lights, no transponder. He set down in a cluttered area and waited (or maybe covered it with a tarp).

It is a UFO, though: Unidentified, Flying, and an Object.

AEROLINK

UAL T38:
Thanks for the post. It put a smile on my face. Great bit of quasi-cynical humor. BTW: No I am not a journalist and yes I do consider myself a student pilot (have a bit of C-150 time in my logbook- just can't afford more right now).
Basically just enjoy all facets of civil aviation, especially commercial aircraft and their operation. Just got started on this forum when I saw the original post from "bgmann", since he actaully saw what I only heard while monitoring JFK tower that evening. Guess I am making too much out of it.
*** I am squawkiing 1200-my radar service has been terminated-am resuming own navigation-and frequency change has been approved. ***

bgmann

haha. Nice aero. I didnt see it as good as the guys at the front of the line. But i saw something flying with a silhouette of a person--or was it an alien -- suspended by a wing and descending to the cargo ramp and then ascending. It was sunset so it was limited lighting. Wish the other guys would chime in...

Possibly I am making too much of it as well, but I am skeptical it is just an ignorant or intoxicated guy flying around for fun. I think they were testing the system for a future mission.

For the guys that dont feel like browsing back a page... YouTube - Aug 16 530pm JFK UFO or Powered Paraglider

AEROLINK

bgmann

Thanks for the repost of the audio...
On another topic.. since this IS hanger talk after all.
Just curious, what type equipment do you fly?
Right or left hand seat?

bgmann

Complete ATC_Live record archives

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kj...2009-2330Z.mp3

AND

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kj...2009-0000Z.mp3

It starts in the tail end of 2330Z and goes through to middle of 0000Z.