No shortage
03-12-2008, 10:28 AM
#11
Moderator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
SkyHigh says the buy-in to payscale ratio for piloting is not as good as for the trades, while Rick makes the point trades should not be compared to professions. I said something similar in the long-haul thread; professions include intangible benefits that cannot be quantified by pay and the comparison is skewed. No one said pilots should quit to be tradesmen although SkyHigh painted a dreary picture of the wages earned by most pilots and made a case that few of them can truly aspire to the higher levels of the industry. I then replied the number who can aspire is probably much better but may still only be one in eight. The scarcity of data on how many qualified people apply to legacy carriers and what the vacancy rate is at those carriers clouds the discussion.
Last edited by Cubdriver; 03-12-2008 at 02:28 PM.
03-12-2008, 10:34 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: C-130
Posts: 381
I like playing with numbers and love figuring out odds (I am a poker player)
Anyway, Us Americans (not read U.S. Americans
) had about a 1 in 20 chance of being born an American (250mil to 5 bil),
I personally had a 1 in 12 chance of getting into the Naval Academy (1200 out of about 14000), and had a 1 in 4 chance at getting a pilot spot out of the Academy.
So by the time I graduated I had beat the odds in the realm of about 1 in 1000. I could go on with the odds of Navy platform, and duty station, follow on orders etc......
My point.....for someone with the drive to do whatever it takes to accomplish a goal, and has the right personality for it, Type A, friendly, good study habits, knows where to find the gouge (APC is a great place to start!!!)
any one of us can get to a Major airline eventually. Some will make it quicker than others due to reasons of "inside info" but we all have to get to the "competitive" hours somehow, and if one keeps plugging away at it, I see no reason why any ONE person can't get there.
Anyway, Us Americans (not read U.S. Americans
) had about a 1 in 20 chance of being born an American (250mil to 5 bil), I personally had a 1 in 12 chance of getting into the Naval Academy (1200 out of about 14000), and had a 1 in 4 chance at getting a pilot spot out of the Academy.
So by the time I graduated I had beat the odds in the realm of about 1 in 1000. I could go on with the odds of Navy platform, and duty station, follow on orders etc......
My point.....for someone with the drive to do whatever it takes to accomplish a goal, and has the right personality for it, Type A, friendly, good study habits, knows where to find the gouge (APC is a great place to start!!!)
any one of us can get to a Major airline eventually. Some will make it quicker than others due to reasons of "inside info" but we all have to get to the "competitive" hours somehow, and if one keeps plugging away at it, I see no reason why any ONE person can't get there.
03-12-2008, 02:10 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 876
Lets not forget that there are thousands of well paying flying jobs with high quality of life that require a commercial certificate that have nothing to do with UPS, FEDEX a legacy airline or a large national carrier.
Fractionals are huge, corporate aviation is huge, non military government / contracting jobs are out there, freight forwarders, I could go on. Many people don't want an airline job and they won't be competing with you.
Fractionals are huge, corporate aviation is huge, non military government / contracting jobs are out there, freight forwarders, I could go on. Many people don't want an airline job and they won't be competing with you.
03-12-2008, 03:43 PM
#14
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
You can do it !!
Anyone can make it to a major.
The question really is how badly will a pilot be prepared to mess up the rest of his/her life in the pursuit.
Unwanted military commitments
College loans
Low wages
Lay offs
Anyone can make it to their goals. The same can be said of winning the lottery. All you have to do is to buy enough tickets. A lot of tickets.
The question really is how badly will a pilot be prepared to mess up the rest of his/her life in the pursuit.
Unwanted military commitments
College loans
Low wages
Lay offs
Anyone can make it to their goals. The same can be said of winning the lottery. All you have to do is to buy enough tickets. A lot of tickets.
Last edited by SkyHigh; 03-12-2008 at 03:58 PM.
03-12-2008, 03:57 PM
#15
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Still
Lets not forget that there are thousands of well paying flying jobs with high quality of life that require a commercial certificate that have nothing to do with UPS, FEDEX a legacy airline or a large national carrier.
Fractionals are huge, corporate aviation is huge, non military government / contracting jobs are out there, freight forwarders, I could go on. Many people don't want an airline job and they won't be competing with you.
Fractionals are huge, corporate aviation is huge, non military government / contracting jobs are out there, freight forwarders, I could go on. Many people don't want an airline job and they won't be competing with you.
Eventually the majority will have to settle with something.
Skyhigh
03-12-2008, 04:08 PM
#16
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Regional turn over
I don't agree with that. I doubt anybody will just hang their headphones up if they don't make it to a legacy, especially if they are a CA at a regional making $70k. Like social swede said, it's about a passion. bottom line is that pilots get paid pretty well after a few years, and VERY well after many years. All is takes is a salary of $102,000 to make it to the top 2% of income earners. I'm not going to argue about how truckers make more than first year FO's anymore. How about 5th year? how about 8th year? You could make $40k as a server at a fine dining restaurant with no college also. Does that also mean it might catch up to pilot salaries soon? I think not.
Turbine captains are one of thousands anymore. RJ time is pedestrian. Unless you have some strong internal contacts at the dream job there usually is no interview coming no matter how good you are.
The life of a regional pilot wears on you over time. When the idea first hits that "oh man, I may have to stay here" despair sets in hard. Most of us on the first day of flight school have a shiny 747-400 in mind and not a depressed, tired and in-debt regional pilot dream. It is easier to endure the hardships when you believe that salvation is just around the corner. Once that illusion is gone it becomes much more difficult to stick with it.
I believe that If a pilot is young enough to make a leap to another job or profession they do and that is where a portion of turn over is coming from. The rest are taking chances in desperation with fractionals or corporate. Too bad it takes a small fortune and a wasted decade to learn the hard way.
Skyhigh
03-12-2008, 09:45 PM
#17
Rubber dogsh#t out of HKG
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: Senior Seat Cushion Tester Extraordinaire
Posts: 625
Statement: Pilots face 8 to 1 odds of reaching a good job. Most will not reach even reach their first job let alone one of the better positions.
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
259,000 active, plus 173,000 non-active = 432,000 for 53,458 total legacy type airline jobs. Total overall odds: 8 to 1.
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
259,000 active, plus 173,000 non-active = 432,000 for 53,458 total legacy type airline jobs. Total overall odds: 8 to 1.
It boils down to that you decided to end (or pause) your flying career. Whatever issues you have with that should not be reflected on those that decided to stick with it. You say that aspiring professional pilots should be informed and I'm all for that. However, you unrealistically cut down on the industry every chance you get under the guise of keeping folks "informed"
. You're the antithesis of Kit Darby.......in other words, opposite fringes.You contend that odds are against an aspiring professional pilot that wants to make a successful career of it. That is abject nonsense. With the perseverance that you didn't have, most anyone can have a fulfilling flying career. This is why I think that you're just trying to make yourself feel better by spreading your negativity. Attitude goes a long way, either way. Yours took you the other way.
Last edited by Radials Rule; 03-12-2008 at 10:02 PM.
03-12-2008, 09:54 PM
#18
Rubber dogsh#t out of HKG
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: Senior Seat Cushion Tester Extraordinaire
Posts: 625
Your misplaced arrogance contributes to your misplaced bitterness.
03-13-2008, 03:26 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 137
Lets not forget that there are thousands of well paying flying jobs with high quality of life that require a commercial certificate that have nothing to do with UPS, FEDEX a legacy airline or a large national carrier.
Fractionals are huge, corporate aviation is huge, non military government / contracting jobs are out there, freight forwarders, I could go on. Many people don't want an airline job and they won't be competing with you.
Fractionals are huge, corporate aviation is huge, non military government / contracting jobs are out there, freight forwarders, I could go on. Many people don't want an airline job and they won't be competing with you.
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