Delta's 1972 Christmas Message
12-14-2007, 12:04 PM
#41
APC co-founder
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: B777
Posts: 5,853
Hi guys and girls,
I hope we can all agree that the enrichening and productive diversity of thought and deed make life on this planet better.
Our forum Terms of Service prohibit discussions of politics and religion. It's not because we want to ignore these important issues, but because on anonymous internet message forums, the topics become lighting rods for intolerance, ignorance, and poorly formed "debates".
I'm leaving the thread open in the context of condemning intolerance (i.e. PC police).
Please continue this thread with care.
I hope we can all agree that the enrichening and productive diversity of thought and deed make life on this planet better.
Our forum Terms of Service prohibit discussions of politics and religion. It's not because we want to ignore these important issues, but because on anonymous internet message forums, the topics become lighting rods for intolerance, ignorance, and poorly formed "debates".
I'm leaving the thread open in the context of condemning intolerance (i.e. PC police).
Please continue this thread with care.
12-14-2007, 12:55 PM
#42
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: B-757 Captain
Posts: 38
if your upset by Presidents who openly confess they sought the counsel of God before major military action or any other decision for that matter, there is a long list of very distinguished American leaders throughout history whose honesty, wisdom, and intelligence you would have to be prepared to impugn. George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Thomas Jefferson to name a few.
Jim Walker, Thomas Jefferson on Christianity and Religion is quoted-
"Although Jefferson believed in a Creator, his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term "Nature's God" used by deists of the time). With his scientific bent, Jefferson sought to organize his thoughts on religion.
He rejected the superstitions and mysticism of Christianity and even went so far as to edit the gospels, removing the miracles and mysticism of Jesus (see The Jefferson Bible) leaving only what he deemed the correct moral philosophy of Jesus.
Distortions of history occur in the minds of many Christians whenever they see the word "God" embossed in statue or memorial concrete. For example, those who visit the Jefferson Memorial in Washington will read Jefferson's words engraved: "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every from of tyranny over the mind of man." When they see the word "God" many Christians see this as "proof" of his Christianity without thinking that "God" can have many definitions ranging from nature to supernatural. Yet how many of them realize that this passage aimed at attacking the tyranny of the Christian clergy of Philadelphia, or that Jefferson's God was not the personal god of Christianity? Those memorial words came from a letter written to Benjamin Rush in 1800 in response to Rush's warning about the Philadelphia clergy attacking Jefferson (Jefferson was seen as an infidel by his enemies during his election for President). The complete statement reads as follows:
"The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, & they [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: & enough too in their opinion, & this is the cause of their printing lying pamphlets against me. . .""
Other quotes-
Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814, responding to the claim that Chritianity was part of the Common Law of England, as the United States Constitution defaults to the Common Law regarding matters that it does not address. This argument is still used today by "Christian Nation" revisionists who do not admit to having read Thomas Jefferson's thorough research of this matter.
I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Woods (undated), referring to "our particular superstition," Christianity, from John E Remsburg, Six Historic Americans: Thomas Jefferson, quoted from Franklin Steiner, Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents (1936), "Thomas Jefferson, Freethinker"
Man, don't you hate Atheists? Damn free-thinkers. Why can't they just believe what they know isn't true like the rest of us?
12-14-2007, 01:32 PM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: Any, usually behind the wing
Posts: 382
It's about balancing sensitivity with common sense. Do my Jewish friends want to hear Merry Christmas, probably, if only from the secular, social standpoint. I may wish them a Happy Hannukah, Merry Christmas, or Happy Holidays as seems fit. If they get offended, I tell them to go f......, um never mind.
We do live in a "Christian" nation, founded on Christian values and principals. That said the founding fathers seperated church and state. The other overriding American value is fairness. If the community sees fit, they should have a Christmas display, if they do however, they can't fairly stop other displays. The real problem becomes when the ACLU ruins it for everybody (caveat- I'm a fairly liberal Denocrat). Just like little kids, they yell and scream until nobody gets anything. And because lawsuits are at a minimum distracting and potentially costly, the ACLU can often wield power far in excess of their worth. In my son's grammer school they cancelled a party because it went against one childs religous beliefs. How 'bout THAT individual's parents being sensitive and saying "we'll take little Johnny out while you other 29 kids and parents celebrate". Nah, didn't happen because we didn't want to offend 1 out of 30, just **** off the other 29- so much for tolerance.
Hey, to each their own, although I'll probably draw the line when I see goats downtown.
Everybody have a great Christmas, Happy Hannukah, Happy Holidays, Bitter Bah Humbug Day, or whatever you celebrate. Life's too short. And safe travels too.
We do live in a "Christian" nation, founded on Christian values and principals. That said the founding fathers seperated church and state. The other overriding American value is fairness. If the community sees fit, they should have a Christmas display, if they do however, they can't fairly stop other displays. The real problem becomes when the ACLU ruins it for everybody (caveat- I'm a fairly liberal Denocrat). Just like little kids, they yell and scream until nobody gets anything. And because lawsuits are at a minimum distracting and potentially costly, the ACLU can often wield power far in excess of their worth. In my son's grammer school they cancelled a party because it went against one childs religous beliefs. How 'bout THAT individual's parents being sensitive and saying "we'll take little Johnny out while you other 29 kids and parents celebrate". Nah, didn't happen because we didn't want to offend 1 out of 30, just **** off the other 29- so much for tolerance.
Hey, to each their own, although I'll probably draw the line when I see goats downtown.
Everybody have a great Christmas, Happy Hannukah, Happy Holidays, Bitter Bah Humbug Day, or whatever you celebrate. Life's too short. And safe travels too.
12-14-2007, 02:12 PM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 433
Exhibit "A". That's exactly what I was talking about. No one said anything even close to what you wrote. You inferred it on your own. I guess the Declaration of Independence really gets your dander up as well. I don't get bent out of shape when someone wishes me a Happy Chanukah. It's a beautiful celebration of one of God's miracles. It's ironic that as you falsely accuse me of being intolerant you reveal yourself to be amazingly intolerant yourself.
12-14-2007, 05:33 PM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: 757/767
Posts: 890
Jefferson was a deist, if not an closet atheist. He was no Christian.
Jim Walker, Thomas Jefferson on Christianity and Religion is quoted-
"Although Jefferson believed in a Creator, his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term "Nature's God" used by deists of the time). With his scientific bent, Jefferson sought to organize his thoughts on religion.
He rejected the superstitions and mysticism of Christianity and even went so far as to edit the gospels, removing the miracles and mysticism of Jesus (see The Jefferson Bible) leaving only what he deemed the correct moral philosophy of Jesus.
Distortions of history occur in the minds of many Christians whenever they see the word "God" embossed in statue or memorial concrete. For example, those who visit the Jefferson Memorial in Washington will read Jefferson's words engraved: "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every from of tyranny over the mind of man." When they see the word "God" many Christians see this as "proof" of his Christianity without thinking that "God" can have many definitions ranging from nature to supernatural. Yet how many of them realize that this passage aimed at attacking the tyranny of the Christian clergy of Philadelphia, or that Jefferson's God was not the personal god of Christianity? Those memorial words came from a letter written to Benjamin Rush in 1800 in response to Rush's warning about the Philadelphia clergy attacking Jefferson (Jefferson was seen as an infidel by his enemies during his election for President). The complete statement reads as follows:
"The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, & they [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: & enough too in their opinion, & this is the cause of their printing lying pamphlets against me. . .""
Other quotes-
Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814, responding to the claim that Chritianity was part of the Common Law of England, as the United States Constitution defaults to the Common Law regarding matters that it does not address. This argument is still used today by "Christian Nation" revisionists who do not admit to having read Thomas Jefferson's thorough research of this matter.
I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Woods (undated), referring to "our particular superstition," Christianity, from John E Remsburg, Six Historic Americans: Thomas Jefferson, quoted from Franklin Steiner, Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents (1936), "Thomas Jefferson, Freethinker"
Man, don't you hate Atheists? Damn free-thinkers. Why can't they just believe what they know isn't true like the rest of us?
Jim Walker, Thomas Jefferson on Christianity and Religion is quoted-
"Although Jefferson believed in a Creator, his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term "Nature's God" used by deists of the time). With his scientific bent, Jefferson sought to organize his thoughts on religion.
He rejected the superstitions and mysticism of Christianity and even went so far as to edit the gospels, removing the miracles and mysticism of Jesus (see The Jefferson Bible) leaving only what he deemed the correct moral philosophy of Jesus.
Distortions of history occur in the minds of many Christians whenever they see the word "God" embossed in statue or memorial concrete. For example, those who visit the Jefferson Memorial in Washington will read Jefferson's words engraved: "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every from of tyranny over the mind of man." When they see the word "God" many Christians see this as "proof" of his Christianity without thinking that "God" can have many definitions ranging from nature to supernatural. Yet how many of them realize that this passage aimed at attacking the tyranny of the Christian clergy of Philadelphia, or that Jefferson's God was not the personal god of Christianity? Those memorial words came from a letter written to Benjamin Rush in 1800 in response to Rush's warning about the Philadelphia clergy attacking Jefferson (Jefferson was seen as an infidel by his enemies during his election for President). The complete statement reads as follows:
"The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, & they [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: & enough too in their opinion, & this is the cause of their printing lying pamphlets against me. . .""
Other quotes-
Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814, responding to the claim that Chritianity was part of the Common Law of England, as the United States Constitution defaults to the Common Law regarding matters that it does not address. This argument is still used today by "Christian Nation" revisionists who do not admit to having read Thomas Jefferson's thorough research of this matter.
I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Woods (undated), referring to "our particular superstition," Christianity, from John E Remsburg, Six Historic Americans: Thomas Jefferson, quoted from Franklin Steiner, Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents (1936), "Thomas Jefferson, Freethinker"
Man, don't you hate Atheists? Damn free-thinkers. Why can't they just believe what they know isn't true like the rest of us?
I will admit I should have left Jefferson out of that original sentence for clarity.
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