Teacher Salaries
12-24-2005, 05:37 AM
#61
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Opportunity
Originally Posted by ChrisH
SkyHigh,
You have been able to open and run a very successful business, that according to you, will continue to flourish, and do better over time. I certainly wish you the best of luck with that!
If I were to try to bring up what a UPS, FedEx, SWA, AirTran, JetBlue, etc. captain makes, you would probably shoot it down, saying very few will make it.
I think as soon as pilots get it out of their heads that they should be making more than everybody else, and as soon as someone does make more than them, being a pilot isn't worth it, the sooner attitudes will change, and the industry will change. I don't think it is the young aspiring pilots like myself who are causing the problems, it is the negative people with bad attitudes who cannot see any good in any situation.
As far as this friend, or person you know that turned down a SWA position. He is one of very few. If he wishes to pass that opportunity up, so be it, I hope he does well in whatever else he decides to do. In the meantime, he has given someone else the shot at his slot, and made another pilot very happy.
You have been able to open and run a very successful business, that according to you, will continue to flourish, and do better over time. I certainly wish you the best of luck with that!
If I were to try to bring up what a UPS, FedEx, SWA, AirTran, JetBlue, etc. captain makes, you would probably shoot it down, saying very few will make it.
I think as soon as pilots get it out of their heads that they should be making more than everybody else, and as soon as someone does make more than them, being a pilot isn't worth it, the sooner attitudes will change, and the industry will change. I don't think it is the young aspiring pilots like myself who are causing the problems, it is the negative people with bad attitudes who cannot see any good in any situation.
As far as this friend, or person you know that turned down a SWA position. He is one of very few. If he wishes to pass that opportunity up, so be it, I hope he does well in whatever else he decides to do. In the meantime, he has given someone else the shot at his slot, and made another pilot very happy.
UPS, FedEx and the others are good jobs, but who knows where they will be in 10 years? You also made a reference to business failure rates. These are interesting to me since as employees we feel that somehow we are insulated from the same risk and the reality couldn't be more different. Employees are the most at risk in any business venture since they have to invest what is truly precious, wasted years of their lives, and have no real claim to the benefits and rewards if a business does well. Employees are just pawns that are at the mercy of whom ever owns or runs the venture. Just ask people from Vanguard, TWA, Legend, DAL, UAL, Eastern, Braniff and all the other airline failures like myself from National Airlines. What we lost can never be replaced. The owners and managers just moved on to their next opportunity. My guess is that half of the employees from any company shout down will never find suitable work again. You mentioned that 5 out of 6 business fail. The failure rate doubles in aviation and as a pilot you can be assured of being furloughed or laid off 3 times over your career. Each time will bring you to the edge of bankruptcy and you can look forward to midnight move outs, rusty UHaul moving vans, crying children and all the rest of that kind of fun only to start over again at another shaky venture.
My message is that the odds of making it to anyplace good are slim at best and that they are getting even slimmer over time. It is possible to make it, but you have to ask yourself about the price that you are willing to pay, the risks that you are willing to take. There are plenty of jobs out there that I could get. If I were single I probably would be living in Viet Nam right now and flying a 737 or perhaps I would be flying long haul cargo in an old DC10 with my buddies at Gemini. These jobs look great on paper but the reality is not so fun and impossible for a healthy family life.
Working for the airlines is a hard job and it demands a high price from pilots. You will not understand the boredom or loneliness until you have a chance to try it for yourself. You seem to think that pilots are greedy and short sighted about pay. You mentioned that once we get use to the low wages that attitudes will improve. You are not correct about those assumptions because when you are in the saddle you realize that what we do as pilots is to sell time away from our families. We also sell our happiness and accept loneliness in its place. We sell our bodies by trading normal sleep and food requirements for a messed up body clock and unhealthy food choices at 3:00AM. Only when you feel the pain of being ripped awake by crew scheduling and told to be at the airport in one hour for a 7 day trip will you understand what it is that you give away as you kiss your sleeping children good bye. As a pilot you will sell what is most dear in life and you will demand to be well paid since these are things that you will never get back. My friend who passed up SWA realizes that. Next summer he will turn 40. He has a good job now where he is senior and can have the time at home that he needs. By accepting a position now at SWA he would be selling his part in the lives of his children. Sure someone else will take the job. Perhaps they are younger or single. Perhaps they will sell their family and come home from a trip someday to find an empty house.
Aviation is not like most other jobs. The price is extremely high. When it is your turn you will understand this and you will demand to be compensated, but it probably will be too late.
SkyHigh
Chris, I really like you and always wish you the best. I hope that you can recognise my efforts to be your friend and understand if you don't agree with me. I appreciate your responses and respect your opinions.
Last edited by SkyHigh; 12-24-2005 at 05:42 AM.
12-24-2005, 10:06 AM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: XJT F/O
Posts: 144
sky high
i appreciate your remarks on this forum of your interpretation of this industry. my choice to pursue this dream has been a long process of finding a way to achieve it and to make sure that my family is behind me. The very people on this forum have helped me to understand the goods and the bads of aviation. but as my family and i have decided is that we can and will make it work. my previous employment was a dead end, it was warehouse work that the management would tell us every other month that we were going to close down because they did not know how to manage it, but would blame us because we did not work harder.
your comments about how the airlines are a risky business to get into as a worker because you are just a pawn is not isolated. i hope you understand that every job has its risk of being lost because of poor ownership or economic trends in a particular industry. there is no job safe out there from anything. i could list a bunch of these but i think most on here could name one at least. the airlines are a hard life if you make it that way. you are right that the airlines are not the best for a family life but now days there are very few jobs that are.
all of the jobs you have mentioned are having the same issues as you seem to think is only inherent in the airlines. police officers are probably the one job i would think even a 100k a year is not enough. these guys work everyday anytime of the day protecting the very things we take for granted. pay them more then airline pilots because they have probably saved more lifes then any airline pilot has.
some on hear talk about how the military is the best start for anybody and then talk about how the airlines destroy family by taking you away for six days at a time. that would be easy compared to the military which can and has broken up families for up to a year on things they like to call TDY's.
you act like constuction is the save all for everybody. yeah it is good when the industry is good but after watching the news last night and hearing that there was an 11% drop in home sales last month tells me that the industry is slowing down and people in it are going to be going broke. being a child having a dad in the consturciton industry and friends with parents in it, i know a little about hard times. getting out of the airlines to avoid lay offs and bankrupcty by going into construction is not very wise.
skyhigh i do not hate you or think that your comments are an evil attempt to destroy dreams on hear but i think you have made the poor choice to think that all people have the same problems as you have had. your life is yours not anybody elses. what happen to you in the airlines and how you handled what the life was like did not work for you and your family. but that does not mean that all people in it are going to have the same problems. the flight school i am going to right now has alot of people already working in the airlines and the instructors have many friends in the airlines and not one of them talks about how they hate it. the first time i heard any bad comments about the airlines are from the very people on hear. i understand that niether of these camps are wrong in what they say but these comments from them are personnal opinions not facts.
i appreciate your remarks on this forum of your interpretation of this industry. my choice to pursue this dream has been a long process of finding a way to achieve it and to make sure that my family is behind me. The very people on this forum have helped me to understand the goods and the bads of aviation. but as my family and i have decided is that we can and will make it work. my previous employment was a dead end, it was warehouse work that the management would tell us every other month that we were going to close down because they did not know how to manage it, but would blame us because we did not work harder.
your comments about how the airlines are a risky business to get into as a worker because you are just a pawn is not isolated. i hope you understand that every job has its risk of being lost because of poor ownership or economic trends in a particular industry. there is no job safe out there from anything. i could list a bunch of these but i think most on here could name one at least. the airlines are a hard life if you make it that way. you are right that the airlines are not the best for a family life but now days there are very few jobs that are.
all of the jobs you have mentioned are having the same issues as you seem to think is only inherent in the airlines. police officers are probably the one job i would think even a 100k a year is not enough. these guys work everyday anytime of the day protecting the very things we take for granted. pay them more then airline pilots because they have probably saved more lifes then any airline pilot has.
some on hear talk about how the military is the best start for anybody and then talk about how the airlines destroy family by taking you away for six days at a time. that would be easy compared to the military which can and has broken up families for up to a year on things they like to call TDY's.
you act like constuction is the save all for everybody. yeah it is good when the industry is good but after watching the news last night and hearing that there was an 11% drop in home sales last month tells me that the industry is slowing down and people in it are going to be going broke. being a child having a dad in the consturciton industry and friends with parents in it, i know a little about hard times. getting out of the airlines to avoid lay offs and bankrupcty by going into construction is not very wise.
skyhigh i do not hate you or think that your comments are an evil attempt to destroy dreams on hear but i think you have made the poor choice to think that all people have the same problems as you have had. your life is yours not anybody elses. what happen to you in the airlines and how you handled what the life was like did not work for you and your family. but that does not mean that all people in it are going to have the same problems. the flight school i am going to right now has alot of people already working in the airlines and the instructors have many friends in the airlines and not one of them talks about how they hate it. the first time i heard any bad comments about the airlines are from the very people on hear. i understand that niether of these camps are wrong in what they say but these comments from them are personnal opinions not facts.
12-24-2005, 11:49 AM
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: CR7 Capt
Posts: 1,621
Originally Posted by FlyerJosh
Like it or not, it's one hell of a ride. There are many who have thrown in the towel. There are just as many that make it work and love it too. It does make for an interesting family life. But SkyHigh also fails to mention about some of the benefits to this lifestyle (pardon me while I have a sappy moment):
I've taken my family on many trips, both domestic and international that we wouldn't have been able to travel on without free or reduced airfare. We've seen San Fran in the Summer and Ft Lauderdale in the Winter. We got engaged on a trip to Seattle, and have skiied around the country.
My wife was able to commute weekly from Washington DC to Boston for classes towards her Masters Degree at the school that she most wanted to attend.
I have seen more places and interesting things as a result of my job than both of my parents combined: The Eiffel Tower at Christmas, 5am meteor showers from 35000', the rain forests of Central America and the blue waters of the Caribbean. The northern lights, and the entire east coast from Maine to DC all at once on a clear winter night. Steam on the Great Lakes in the morning from subzero temperatures, and the swaying palms of sunny San Diego in the afternoon. The snow covered peaks of Mt Rainer to the volcanic rocks of Iceland. Smiles of children in the cockpit, and the hugs of passengers that just met long seen loved ones.
I've met some incredible people, and seen both the ups and downs of the job. I know people who have ridden through divorces, but I know even more who have survived the trials only to end up stronger in their relationships.
I've made some lifetime friends and still run into many familiar faces at the various airports that I travel through. We relive the memories of days long past, and sit for hours on overnights while tossing back beers and bringing each other up to date.
I've walked through the snow with drunken flight attendants, and helped other pilots through the grief of losing a loved one on trips.
I've partied hard on the road, and partied hard at home with friends and coworkers from the airlines.
I've spent many a holiday gone, but just as many at home... for those I was gone, I often brought family along. You can have just as much quality time away as you can at home. Sometimes it's even better.
I've shared the love of aviation with others, and done as much as I can to mentor and help folks along their own paths... some have made it, some have not.
Is the path right for everybody? Obviously not. But you never know until you try. We can beat this to death and we'll never change some peoples attitudes. But if you love it, and can live with the various ups and downs of this job, then it's one heck of a ride.
I wouldn't trade it for the world.
I've taken my family on many trips, both domestic and international that we wouldn't have been able to travel on without free or reduced airfare. We've seen San Fran in the Summer and Ft Lauderdale in the Winter. We got engaged on a trip to Seattle, and have skiied around the country.
My wife was able to commute weekly from Washington DC to Boston for classes towards her Masters Degree at the school that she most wanted to attend.
I have seen more places and interesting things as a result of my job than both of my parents combined: The Eiffel Tower at Christmas, 5am meteor showers from 35000', the rain forests of Central America and the blue waters of the Caribbean. The northern lights, and the entire east coast from Maine to DC all at once on a clear winter night. Steam on the Great Lakes in the morning from subzero temperatures, and the swaying palms of sunny San Diego in the afternoon. The snow covered peaks of Mt Rainer to the volcanic rocks of Iceland. Smiles of children in the cockpit, and the hugs of passengers that just met long seen loved ones.
I've met some incredible people, and seen both the ups and downs of the job. I know people who have ridden through divorces, but I know even more who have survived the trials only to end up stronger in their relationships.
I've made some lifetime friends and still run into many familiar faces at the various airports that I travel through. We relive the memories of days long past, and sit for hours on overnights while tossing back beers and bringing each other up to date.
I've walked through the snow with drunken flight attendants, and helped other pilots through the grief of losing a loved one on trips.
I've partied hard on the road, and partied hard at home with friends and coworkers from the airlines.
I've spent many a holiday gone, but just as many at home... for those I was gone, I often brought family along. You can have just as much quality time away as you can at home. Sometimes it's even better.
I've shared the love of aviation with others, and done as much as I can to mentor and help folks along their own paths... some have made it, some have not.
Is the path right for everybody? Obviously not. But you never know until you try. We can beat this to death and we'll never change some peoples attitudes. But if you love it, and can live with the various ups and downs of this job, then it's one heck of a ride.
I wouldn't trade it for the world.
Hey, Josh,
I can't wait to live that life
12-24-2005, 02:05 PM
#64
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Captain of my leather sofa
Posts: 67
skyhigh
skyhigh, I just graduated last week with Masters in Aviation Managment. Was it the right degree to get? I dont even know yet. I am proud that I got this, it took lots of hours and lots of hard work. I finished, I think that something to proud about; even if you think I am stupid for doing so. I am a pilot as well. Being 24 years old I am very proud and excited for all that I have accomplished.
Dittidano
Happy holidays, and have a wonderful Christmas
Dittidano
Happy holidays, and have a wonderful Christmas
12-26-2005, 06:40 AM
#65
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Dittidano
Dittidano,
Congratulations! I was not trying to bag on your accomplishments as much as it was interesting to me that somehow you felt as though you could label me as "uneducated". Book work and fancy titles don't mean much in what really is a vocation. Its like getting a masters degree in welding. Best of luck to you. Management is the place to be in this industry.
Speeder, ChrisH, Josh,
There are a lot of postings about doing what you love and what is fun and all, and that is great. My point in all this is that you should do what you love, but in turn it should love you back as well. Aviation might be working out for Josh. He doesn't have a family yet and his financial and home needs are not that great so far. However for speeder I think that he will find that things will be more challenging. Our needs are different and are constantly changing. There are people for whom this career is working out at the time. Ask any 25 year old who just got off IOE about his job and he will tell you that he loves it. Find the same guy 6 months later the same question and his enthusiasm will have dimmed. At the three year mark and still an FO and he will be quite angry. Ask any senior SWA or Alaska Airlines captains about their feelings about aviation and they would most likely say good things. Ask the same question of a 6 year regional FO and you would most likely get a very different response. You can't pin your hopes on the meeting of one happy pilot. A few are ecstatic most however are very disappointed.
Occasionally I like to bring up the statistics of new pilots vs the assessments of current working pilots. In an average year somewhere in the area of 65,000 new commercial pilots are created for an estimated 12,000 new positions. Out of the 12,000 new jobs around 2500 are actual livable career positions. One in twenty new commercial grade pilots will make it to a career position (like a major airline or good corporate position). Currently there are 600,000 licenced pilots with current medicals. The FAA doesn't keep the statistics but I think there are another one or two million pilots who are living but let their medicals expire. These people were once in the pilot pool but had to quit somewhere along the way. In five years time two thirds of the people who post on this forum will be out of aviation completely and doing something else. No one keeps track of this information because it is not too flattering of our beloved aviation. The ones who had to quit usually fade back into society and never venture to an airport ever again and rarely bring it up in conversation. Flying is a flashy fun looking job that has a broad appeal and the training is too easy to get. Aviation is like the lottery or gambling. We get a few minutes at the table, a couple of pulls at the slot machines and then you are gone. A tiny few will find a good job.
The likelyhood of using that plan B is unfortunatley very high. I don't think that construction is the answer. It has worked out well for me. Whenever I was forced out of aviation it was my fall back position. As I look back over my career it was the only thing that provided me with a real income. My poorest times were when I was working full time as a pilot. My richest times were during months when I was laid off and building a house or two. Construction is not my first choice, but it is something that I can do seems to like me in return. It is a real skill that earns real money. It is wise to develop an idea of what you could do outside of aviation should the need arise.
SkyHigh
PS. Last Friday morning my wife and I met our fourth son. I haven't been ignoring you guys. I was a little busy.
Congratulations! I was not trying to bag on your accomplishments as much as it was interesting to me that somehow you felt as though you could label me as "uneducated". Book work and fancy titles don't mean much in what really is a vocation. Its like getting a masters degree in welding. Best of luck to you. Management is the place to be in this industry.
Speeder, ChrisH, Josh,
There are a lot of postings about doing what you love and what is fun and all, and that is great. My point in all this is that you should do what you love, but in turn it should love you back as well. Aviation might be working out for Josh. He doesn't have a family yet and his financial and home needs are not that great so far. However for speeder I think that he will find that things will be more challenging. Our needs are different and are constantly changing. There are people for whom this career is working out at the time. Ask any 25 year old who just got off IOE about his job and he will tell you that he loves it. Find the same guy 6 months later the same question and his enthusiasm will have dimmed. At the three year mark and still an FO and he will be quite angry. Ask any senior SWA or Alaska Airlines captains about their feelings about aviation and they would most likely say good things. Ask the same question of a 6 year regional FO and you would most likely get a very different response. You can't pin your hopes on the meeting of one happy pilot. A few are ecstatic most however are very disappointed.
Occasionally I like to bring up the statistics of new pilots vs the assessments of current working pilots. In an average year somewhere in the area of 65,000 new commercial pilots are created for an estimated 12,000 new positions. Out of the 12,000 new jobs around 2500 are actual livable career positions. One in twenty new commercial grade pilots will make it to a career position (like a major airline or good corporate position). Currently there are 600,000 licenced pilots with current medicals. The FAA doesn't keep the statistics but I think there are another one or two million pilots who are living but let their medicals expire. These people were once in the pilot pool but had to quit somewhere along the way. In five years time two thirds of the people who post on this forum will be out of aviation completely and doing something else. No one keeps track of this information because it is not too flattering of our beloved aviation. The ones who had to quit usually fade back into society and never venture to an airport ever again and rarely bring it up in conversation. Flying is a flashy fun looking job that has a broad appeal and the training is too easy to get. Aviation is like the lottery or gambling. We get a few minutes at the table, a couple of pulls at the slot machines and then you are gone. A tiny few will find a good job.
The likelyhood of using that plan B is unfortunatley very high. I don't think that construction is the answer. It has worked out well for me. Whenever I was forced out of aviation it was my fall back position. As I look back over my career it was the only thing that provided me with a real income. My poorest times were when I was working full time as a pilot. My richest times were during months when I was laid off and building a house or two. Construction is not my first choice, but it is something that I can do seems to like me in return. It is a real skill that earns real money. It is wise to develop an idea of what you could do outside of aviation should the need arise.
SkyHigh
PS. Last Friday morning my wife and I met our fourth son. I haven't been ignoring you guys. I was a little busy.
12-26-2005, 08:47 AM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: XJT F/O
Posts: 144
sky high
first i would like to congradulate you and your wife on the new baby. i appreciate your thoughts and comments about how this industry affects the different people in different stages. i can totally understand the 6 year FO being rather upset about his career. i can only assume what it must be like but i hope that my choices in choosing a path in aviation does not lead down that road. if it does then given the large investment and effort i put into getting that far will not just be thrown out the door. some people may give up but i will probably not.
sky high you are also correct in having a plan B. it is a good idea to have something to fall back on for those rough times. but to me plan b is to help with those rough times not give up on the carrer i choose. on those stats you posted, were those all medical certificates given for every pilot or just first class medicals. if those were all of them then there is some extra consideration into the numbers. the thinking that there are lots of people giving up out is not far off base but i think most career fields are going to have a high drop rate because what people hear and what they actually experience in a career are different, so most are incline to move on to the next greener field. aviation might get higher numbers because some jump into it thinking they are going to get rich quick. then they relize the time and effort needed to get to those good times are long and hard fought. so they give up.
one question sky high. is the construction industry starting to slow down or is just going through a holiday slow down. i am not trying to make a point just want so info from someone in the business. is the bubble going to pop or what.
first i would like to congradulate you and your wife on the new baby. i appreciate your thoughts and comments about how this industry affects the different people in different stages. i can totally understand the 6 year FO being rather upset about his career. i can only assume what it must be like but i hope that my choices in choosing a path in aviation does not lead down that road. if it does then given the large investment and effort i put into getting that far will not just be thrown out the door. some people may give up but i will probably not.
sky high you are also correct in having a plan B. it is a good idea to have something to fall back on for those rough times. but to me plan b is to help with those rough times not give up on the carrer i choose. on those stats you posted, were those all medical certificates given for every pilot or just first class medicals. if those were all of them then there is some extra consideration into the numbers. the thinking that there are lots of people giving up out is not far off base but i think most career fields are going to have a high drop rate because what people hear and what they actually experience in a career are different, so most are incline to move on to the next greener field. aviation might get higher numbers because some jump into it thinking they are going to get rich quick. then they relize the time and effort needed to get to those good times are long and hard fought. so they give up.
one question sky high. is the construction industry starting to slow down or is just going through a holiday slow down. i am not trying to make a point just want so info from someone in the business. is the bubble going to pop or what.
12-26-2005, 10:48 AM
#67
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Speeder
Dear Speeder,
Thank you for the congratulations. Our new son is doing fine and we are all slowly getting use to our new family member.
In reference to your medical question the stats refer to pilots with any valid medical, so someone with a first class would take three years to drop off the records as an active pilot. People quit aviation for a variety of reasons. Most never get their first job as a flight instructor and it ends there. A few others quit somewhere along the way to build up some funds in order to return and never make it back. As I mentioned before I think that every time a company furloughs or lays off pilots half never go back to flying. Then there is a growing trend of despondent aviators who made to to a regional and realize that they will never go on to the majors and just walk off the job. Once you are there you will quickly realize that your life from that point on is mostly out of your control. No matter how hard you try your future and success as an aviator is in the hands of others. When an airline slows down and advancement stops it can become a grind. After a while you begin to realize that the rest of your career will be spent doing the same things day after day. There is little satisfaction in sitting there in the right seat as the autopilot accomplishes another flawless ILS. Your body clock gets messed up when on one day you are up at 4:00AM to be followed a few days later by a day that lasts until 2:00AM. The day eventually comes when you realize that you had spent more nights in strange hotel rooms in the past year than in your own bed. It is a hard job and the glamor and intrigue rapidly goes away and all you are left with is the boredom of endless chains of 6 to 9 leg days. No one starts out in this profession thinking that they will be quitters. We all feel strongly that we will be the next space shuttle captains. The truth is that this industry is all about luck and less about ability and effort.
As far as housing goes I don't think that there will be a bubble like the stock market. Areas will experience cyclical down turns or a slight reduction in values but real estate is different from almost anything else in finance. We all need a place to live and they aren't making anymore land. The western states are expecting a 40-58% population increase over the next ten years. They all will need someplace to live. If I had not wasted all that money on my college and flight school expenses and bought a few houses with the money instead I would be much better off I can assure you. If you haven't bought a place yet then you had better soon. One of the biggest losses we experience as pilots is that everyone is afraid of buying since they all think they might be forced to move soon. Buy anyway.
SkyHigh
Thank you for the congratulations. Our new son is doing fine and we are all slowly getting use to our new family member.
In reference to your medical question the stats refer to pilots with any valid medical, so someone with a first class would take three years to drop off the records as an active pilot. People quit aviation for a variety of reasons. Most never get their first job as a flight instructor and it ends there. A few others quit somewhere along the way to build up some funds in order to return and never make it back. As I mentioned before I think that every time a company furloughs or lays off pilots half never go back to flying. Then there is a growing trend of despondent aviators who made to to a regional and realize that they will never go on to the majors and just walk off the job. Once you are there you will quickly realize that your life from that point on is mostly out of your control. No matter how hard you try your future and success as an aviator is in the hands of others. When an airline slows down and advancement stops it can become a grind. After a while you begin to realize that the rest of your career will be spent doing the same things day after day. There is little satisfaction in sitting there in the right seat as the autopilot accomplishes another flawless ILS. Your body clock gets messed up when on one day you are up at 4:00AM to be followed a few days later by a day that lasts until 2:00AM. The day eventually comes when you realize that you had spent more nights in strange hotel rooms in the past year than in your own bed. It is a hard job and the glamor and intrigue rapidly goes away and all you are left with is the boredom of endless chains of 6 to 9 leg days. No one starts out in this profession thinking that they will be quitters. We all feel strongly that we will be the next space shuttle captains. The truth is that this industry is all about luck and less about ability and effort.
As far as housing goes I don't think that there will be a bubble like the stock market. Areas will experience cyclical down turns or a slight reduction in values but real estate is different from almost anything else in finance. We all need a place to live and they aren't making anymore land. The western states are expecting a 40-58% population increase over the next ten years. They all will need someplace to live. If I had not wasted all that money on my college and flight school expenses and bought a few houses with the money instead I would be much better off I can assure you. If you haven't bought a place yet then you had better soon. One of the biggest losses we experience as pilots is that everyone is afraid of buying since they all think they might be forced to move soon. Buy anyway.
SkyHigh
12-26-2005, 02:11 PM
#68
Chief Jeppesen Updater
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Executive Transport Driver
Posts: 3,080
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
Dittidano,
There are a lot of postings about doing what you love and what is fun and all, and that is great. My point in all this is that you should do what you love, but in turn it should love you back as well. Aviation might be working out for Josh. He doesn't have a family yet and his financial and home needs are not that great so far.
There are a lot of postings about doing what you love and what is fun and all, and that is great. My point in all this is that you should do what you love, but in turn it should love you back as well. Aviation might be working out for Josh. He doesn't have a family yet and his financial and home needs are not that great so far.
I do have a family. I am married, and I support more than one additional family member. I do have a mortgage payment. I lived in a major metropolitan area while working for an airline. (Washington DC). I never lived below the poverty level. My financial and home needs are none of your concern, but suffice it to say that they are probably higher than that of the average American (I've paid upwards of 2000/month for living costs on an FOs salary, and only had one roomate as a second year airline pilot. I was able to live on my own prior to that in metro DC, in a single bedroom apartment, as both a CFI and an FO.)
Some airlines are slowing, others are going. A lot of this industry is luck. Some make it. Others don't. Each of us won't know if we can live with the job, until we actually do it.
There are goods and there are bads. I don't dwell on the bads... if I did then I'm sure that I wouldn't be where I am today (who wants to work with the person that constantly *****es about the situation? I know that I wouldn't have likely ended up with in the various career advancements that I have landed).
There are many options (even in this industry) to make it work. There are ways to stay involved or fly for a living and still balance family, work, and play. You might have to think out of the "9 to 5" mentality, but it's possible.
We can go round and round and round. The only way to actually decide if it's for you without regrets or wondering down the line is to actually give it a try with an open mind.
If you allow yourself to believe the hype (either for or against), you're likely to be disappointed in some form or another.
12-26-2005, 04:03 PM
#69
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 184
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
ChrisH,
Chris, I really like you and always wish you the best. I hope that you can recognise my efforts to be your friend and understand if you don't agree with me. I appreciate your responses and respect your opinions.
Chris, I really like you and always wish you the best. I hope that you can recognise my efforts to be your friend and understand if you don't agree with me. I appreciate your responses and respect your opinions.
I've been out of town for Christmas, so just getting back to the boards to see what is going on.
I like you as well, and wish you the best with your business, and whatever else you do. I certainly do understand you are just giving me another perspective. I, as well, respect your opinions, and hope we can be friends and share advice.
From the looks if it, our opinions, and perspectives are based on the experiences we have had, and the people we know. I happen to know a number of successful pilots who wouldn't want to be doing anything else, while you didn't have such good luck with that.
I understand that becoming a pilot can be a long road, and there are obstacles in the way. I think this is the case with many careers, and not just flying. You took a risk to open a business, and it has been a success, and I hope to have the same success becoming a pilot. If I don't, I do have a plan B, which is why I am not majoring in aviation. You, actually, helped me make that decision, as I was contemplating switching my major to aviation.
As far as the pay issues - I agree with you that regional FOs are underpaid. I also will agree with you that pilots are underpaid for the job they do. Looking at regional CA pay, and major FO and CA pay, however, salaries, as far as a 'number' are good, despite being lower than they have been in years past. By this, I mean, taking away all that is involved with being a pilot, those incomes are not bad, and plenty of others would gladly take them.
I am holding out hope, and keeping an optimistic attitude that salaries will either stay as they are, meaning they will not decline further, or in time, they will begin to go back up. Some people have different opinions on why salaries are declining; this biggest being that pilots are not being valued like they used to be. I tend to fall on the side that the cuts are mostly from the financial problems the airlines are facing, and that in time, as things improve (fingers crossed), things will stabalize, and maybe rise again, even if slightly.
I, of course, realize another 9/11 type event could happen tomorrow, and things could get much worse. Believe it or not, you have opened my eyes, and I am now focusing more on making sure I have a plan B in place, in case the worst happens.
-Chris
12-26-2005, 04:17 PM
#70
Self Employed.
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Josh
Originally Posted by FlyerJosh
If you allow yourself to believe the hype (either for or against), you're likely to be disappointed in some form or another.
Some excellent points Josh. Thank you for your posts.
SkyHigh
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
