ChrisH

SkyHigh,

Your advice is not falling on deaf ears. Whether it sounds like it or not, I am listening to it. Life is short, and life is about taking risks. Sometimes these risks pay off, and sometimes they do not. Not taking risks can lead to regret later on. I don't want to stay away from aviation, and years from now, while sitting at my boring desk job doing reports, beginning regretting, and wondering if at that moment I could be a captain for UPS, FedEx, SWA, or some other airline.

You are correct about the DH8 salary at 8 years. It is about $56K. If you look, however, at the DH4 salary, and the CRJ700 salary, they would be making from $73K to $80K. After 8 years, making $80K is not bad. Many people work their whole life to make that, and that firefighter you mentioned will probably be lucky to make that when his salary is topped off. Not to mention that not many firefighters get starting salaries of $49K. It should also be noted that Horizon has one of the higher upgrade times, and someone can be making more at other airlines sooner.

All careers involve time in training and education. My sister wants to be a pharmacists. She is majoring in pharmacy, which is 7 years of college. Her starting salary will probably be about $60K, but she will top off at around $80K-$90K. Someone can easily get a college degree, their ratings, and get a job with a regional well before that 7 years period. Will they start out making $60K? No. But they will most likely be making that $70K or $80K quicker than my sister, because most careers do not reach their topped off salary level until many years later.

I am not setting myself up for poverty wages. I will agree with you all day long that pilots are underpaid for the job they do, but comparing their salaries to other salaries, they are not underpaid. Very few careers will top off above $80K, and a regional pilot can be making that in 8 years as a Horizon CRJ CA, and at other airlines too. If that pilot is lucky enough to make it to the majors, even with the pay cuts, they will make well above what most will ever make. Look at a UPS captain making over $180K after 12 years with the company.

I know people working in various careers, including pilots, and none seem to have it better off. The grass is not always greener. It is all in perspective, and attitude.

SkyHigh

ChrisH,

You have to compare apples to apples. You can't take 56K of Horizon pay and claim that it is a lot of money compared to your home town standards. When you work for the airlines you have to live in big cities (for the most part) and expenses are much higher. Imagine having to pay New York city rent at 30K. Plus you have to remember that it can take 17 years (on average) to get to a livable wage. Most of that 17 years will be spent at very low wages while you are building debt to survive.

There are no future promises. A few companies have 3 to 4 year upgrade times but there are no guarantees it will stay that way. If you hire on to a company for its quick upgrade times is usually when they begin to slow down. Back when I hired on at Horizon Air they told me in the interview that they were running 9 month upgrades at the time. I sat there for two years and was still two years away from upgrade. Times change and there are no promises. The odds are that regionals might have to shrink and we will be heading to some hard times again. (There are 9 year FO's at American Eagle.) The alternative is that conditions will deteriorate to a point where it is easy to get a job that no one wants anymore. (I kind of think we are there now as far as the regionals are concerned).

You keep assuming too much. It is possible that it could take a new hire 20 years or more to upgrade at the majors. Kill Bill has been with Continental for almost 20 years and only recently upgraded. Also it takes over 15 years to reach the RJ at Horizon as a Captain. There are other factors of upgrading and equipment choices to consider as well ie, bases, seniority ect... You shouldn't assume that if someone upgrades in 4 years at company X that he is having a good time doing it. Lifestyle choices can put off upgrade years past your first opportunity.

When you are young it is easy to be idealistic about life, but there needs to be some down to earth thinking too. If you dream of having a normal family life and building a nest egg then the airlines and aviation is a very risky path. If you are a confirmed bachelor who is waiting to inherit a fortune then by all means go for it. Another consideration is age. By my estimation if you are not on with a good major airline by 35 it is too late to make it to a good place. By the time you upgrade and are senor enough to hold some good lines your wife and kids will be grown and gone and you will have missed it all.

Something to think about. A plan B is a great idea.

Your Friend,

SkyHigh

SkyHigh

ChrisH

StearmanDriver is a current regional airline captian and has offered in another thread "so you want to be an airline pilot" to tell of his negative experiences. There are many more out there like me. Usually the young kids are pro aviation till they are in the business a few years then they switch to the other side.

SkyHigh

ChrisH

As I said before, your advice is not falling on deaf ears. I am listening to it, despite what it may seem. I am thankful that people like you do show me the other side to aviation, because I do think it is important to know that it is not all fun and glamour. Hey, nothing is, regardless of your career. I certainly realize that there are others that feel the way you do, just as there are others who enjoy their job as a pilot, and wouldn't want to be doing anything else; some of whom I know personally, including some regional CAs and FOs.

One things pilots tend to do is feel as though these problems only face them. Family members of mine, over the last few years, have experienced many of the same problems facing pilots; layoffs, benefit cuts, pay cuts, etc., and not one of them works in aviation. I've told you of the problems my parents faced at the hospital they work at, as the health care industry as a whole is having problems now. I've told you of my sister who was in management for a retail company who lost her job. I currently work at a golf course part-time, while in college, and our new assistant manager recently lost his job as head manager at another course in the state, due to it closing. Just the other day, in fact, we were all discussing being a pilot, as they know that is my dream, and I was mentioning to them many of the problems the airlines, and pilots are seeing now. Their only response was that many others are experiencing the same thing, including many they knew, well outside of aviation. Again, the grass is not always greener.

As far as pay; regional CAs do not do all that bad. Lets take a look at Horizon again. Lets not look at the CRJ7, or the DH8, since they are the highest and lowest paying of Horizons fleet; lets take middle ground, and look at the DH4.

Someone who gets hired by Horizon, gets the DH4, and upgrades to CA in 8 years will make ~$74K, excluding per diem, and assuming only flying the minimum. Add per diem, and take into account most pilots fly over the minimum, and there is no reason this first year captain flying a turbo-prop for a regional airline cannot be making $80K or more. After only 8 years of working, he is making $80K, which is not too bad.

If this same pilot decided to stay with Horizon on the DH4 as a career, at year 18, he will be making $101K, excluding per diem, and assuming he is only flying the minimum. Add per diem, and flying over the minimum, and there is no reason he cannot make $110K or more. To top this off, he is probably pretty senior at this point, and able to get a good schedule, days off, etc. He has a pretty good QOL.

Is the above idealistic? Sure. But, not as idealistic as some may say, as this could easily be the case. Is $110K a great salary. It certainly is not bad. Not many others are making that kind of salary, when you consider that the national average income is about $50K or less. And, as far as living in a big city; nobody ever said you had to live in a big city. I could get on with ASA or ExpressJet, be based in IAH or ATL and commute from my home town of BTR. There are many daily flights from here to IAH and ATL, and the flight is an hour or less in each case. There is also the option of living in a small town on the outskirts of ATL, and IAH, all big cities, but not a LA or NY.

SkyHigh

ChrisH

I just got off the phone with a Horizon Captain friend who has 8 years in with the company. He just got back from another 4 day trip. He was excited to have the next three days off. He told me that the RJ's are probably going away and that the pilots are worried that management is gearing up for pay cuts at the next contract.

There are easier ways to make a living out there. I have always felt that if someone has the intelligence and determination to get anywhere in aviation then they probably could make it really big in most other industries. I still think that you are assuming way too much. Even if your assumptions were accurate the industry is on the downhill slide.

I would get a degree in another profession and keep aviation on the back burner if I were you. Perhaps you should get out of the south as well. Things are booming out west. A starting nurse wage here is in the mid 60's and quickly moves into the 80's, and we live in a small town. City cops earn 54K their second year. A friend of mine who is a union electrician makes 95K. As I mentioned in an earlier post my cousin is a sheriffs deputy in Los Angles and has made over 100K for the last 10 years. It all make Horizon's 56K seem kind of small by comparison, especially after a string of four day trips.

SkyHigh

dittidano

Skyhigh, Some of your points are valid. Nurses do make really good money, I know a girl who is a nurse in ANC; she has been a nurse for about 3 years and she makes around 70k( I think she said 73k, but not for sure). This girl also works only three days a week/12hrs a day. Its a great gig, if you dont mind wiping some guys butt, giving sponge baths, and preforming other gross duties. Being a nurse is definently not for me. The other stats you stated dont come without a huge price. You talk about how hard it is to go on a four day trip when you have a family. Well let me tell you this, being an union electrician is a great job; however, there is no possible way an electrician would make 95k a year without working tons of overtime, every week all year. Personally, being on a 4 and 3 would be better for a family life than working 75-80 hours a week all year. I would say that the same goes for your cousin, I would bet that he spends more time being a deputy sherriff than being at home. I see exactly why you did not make it in aviation, your attitude sucks. If your attitude now is the same as it was when you were a pilot, its a no brainer why you did not make it. To be an airline pilot you have to have a true passion for aviation. I agree that the first couple of years of regional pay is not very good; but if aviation is your true passion than it should not matter. If your real passion was aviation you would have stuck it out. If you dislike aviation so much, why do you spend so much time on here posting your comments? Are you really trying to open the eyes to future pilots? Or are you jealous of our future pilots living the dream that you never reached?

SkyHigh

dittidano,

What a joy you must be. It seems that you haven't been around here very long or else you would know that I did make it far in aviation. I do (or did) have a burning passion for flying that took me through 12 moves in 15 years and 9 different employers. I worked as a CFI, bush pilot, forest service pilot, air ambulance pilot, corporate pilot, executive jet charter pilot and finally airline pilot. You probably would have known that I also have a worthless four year degree from a prominent NW university in aviation. I self funded all my college, living and flight school expenses by working several jobs. I spent every ounce of effort from 16 till 36 on this profession. My career ended as a Boeing 757-200 first officer for National Airlines. At the time they were considered to be the next SWA.

During my 20 year adventure I had to live in some bad places to keep the dream alive. During my worst episode I had to live in my truck for 9 months while I worked as a freelance CFI. After that I moved up to a tent for three months. Most of the rest of that time I either lived in small cabins, garages, spider and mice infested single wide trailers or in two bedroom apartments as a grown man with as many as 6 other grown men pilots who were trying to make it just like me.

Throughout my career I have studied other professions and their working conditions and pay. I watched as friends and family who after graduating from college quickly moved up in the world and had bought fine houses, took grand vacations and started families. I watched the world prosper while I endured the blessings of my profession. I went to co-worker funerals and told newly wed wives that their husbands were dead. I wrote letters to parents explaining what their son was thinking of the last weeks of his life.

I did all that because I loved aviation. I also did all that because someday I believed that it would provide me with a better life for myself and family. I hoped that with an upper middle class income and more days off than most it would make up for all the sacrifice and losses I endured. At this point I don't think that money would compensate for all that.

A year ago the social security office sent me a statement of my earnings throughout my career. It said that I averaged 16K per year as a professional pilot.

I love aviation. I would bet that there are few others out there who would have suffered more. Out of my graduating class of 30 I am in the top 3 as far as career success goes. Of the other two one is an FO for United who is now earning less than one third of his original pay and benefits package and the other is a new hire at SWA. All the rest quit over a decade ago.

So to answer your question, I loved aviation more than enough. I am not jealous about others in the industry. I feel sorry for them. Aviation is like beaten wife syndrome or a gambling habit. Everyone thinks that "I'll make it big", or "someday aviation will love me" so we step up for another beating. I think a better question is if aviation loves us?

I don't think so.

SkyHigh

ChrisH

SkyHigh,

Most people in other careers do not make $100K, much less more than that. The ones who do make $100K or more are working their butts off for it. When the national average income is less than $50K, there can't be too many people out there bringing home the bank.

We can mention careers all day long that make more than a regional CA, but since when are pilots supposed to make more than everybody else? Should nobody go into a career unless it pays $100K immediately?

I know a guy in his mid 20s who is upgrading to CA on a 727 for a 121 freight operator. He will make $80K his first year. Making $80K when only in your mid 20s is pretty good. $80K is more than what most people make.

If I wanted to be a police officer in LA, or wherever your cousin works, and make $100K, I would. If I wanted to be an electrician and make $95K, I would. But, I don't.

To go along with the electrician thing. I have uncles who own their own air conditioning company, and plumbing company. They all pull in about $50K per year. They might could make much more, but they would have to work tons of over-time, as mentioned by dittidano. As it is, they put in a normal 8 hour day, five days per week, plus taking call on weekends.

As far as you earning an average of $16K per year as a pilot. I find that hard to believe. Someone can get hired today by a regional, average about $30K (maybe slightly higher for most decent regionals) for a few years as an FO, upgrade to CA, and be making $60K, maybe slightly less or more depending on the airline. Even as an FO this person has made more than your $16K average. And his captain salary will continue to go up. As I said, I know an ASA CA who has been with company for 6 years and he is making about $80K, and technically he is only in his 2nd to 3rd year as a CA.

dckozak

This is an interesting thread as everyone has a different history and hence, a different take on their experiences in aviation. Some truisms I have found in 30 odd years of flying airplanes.
1. It's not the best who make it to the top (what ever the top is these days )
2. Luck plays too big a role in getting in, moving up and any and all things "good" about flying.
3. The good places to work today will not be the ones every ones wants in (put a number here) years.
4. This can be a lousy life if your not cut out for long days, often alone in places you'd rather never have seen/been to too often.
5. Friends, family, neighbors, pilots wishing they hard your job, aviation writers, non-flying flight management and others who don't do your job or have every done your job [I]know its easy[U] In the same vain, these people know you get lots of time off, have vacation that lasts forever, just put your feet up for most of the flight, really are on vacation when your out of town.
6. Seniority is good.
7. Some days it is so great to fly, its the best seat in the house, other days they don't pay you enough, even if nothing goes wrong.
8. If you love to fly, nothing anyone, including me, says will put you off reaching for the dream.
9. The dream is becoming more dream and less reality

preludespeeder

sky high

i think i finally understand why you had such a bad time in the industry. sitting hear and reading your last post i noticed that in 20 years you had six different jobs with different aspects of flying. i have one question for you. picture yourself getting into one job and riding out the 20 years. if you were to start out today and put in that 20 year model you would be about 16 years into a single company. with current pay scales in the regionals you would be making around 100k a year.

the point of this model is that your brother the police officer, your friend the electrician, and the nurse at the hospital probably have not changed jobs and companies as much so they have slid up the pay scales and gained enough time there that they are making the good money.

i just want to thank you for your help with my future.