1jetpilot

Did you forget the time away from family? That counts for twice that of a regular job at home. I have managed to be absent from every major holiday and first borns, games, PTA meetings, hospital visits, emergencies, critical meetings, and raising children matters. One can not put a price on the above. So, make sure you are comparing apples with apples.

SkyHigh

ChrisH

Your mind is set. I have done my part and tried to open your eyes to a few things. You clearly are hell bent on this path and good for you. You've got it all planned out. I just hope my words ring in your head when they don't come to pass as you hope. I don't know what the future will bring. You could be doomed already or in the right place at the right time but things rarely turn out as planned. In the end someone has to do it. Better you than me I say.

Good Luck,

Your Friend,

SkyHigh

FlyerJosh

Chris,

Stick with it. I think that if your love of aviation is as true as your posts depict, then you'll get through the hurdles that this career throws at you. SkyHigh is right, this industry is not for the weak of heart or mind, and things rarely do work out as planned. But he's wrong to assume that it's going to be heartbreaking for everybody. I've found that an upbeat, idealistic attitude is more than half the battle. (But I'm personally optimistic and can find the good in just about everything... including getting furloughed).

You'll find that there are ups, and there are downs. But it's that way with every profession. Only you know what you and your family needs, but I do know that I've enjoyed my 10 year aviation career, and I know many other pilots with families that can successfully juggle the ups and downs of this profession too.

It's not always an easy road, but I think that for as many people that are willing to complain about the bads, you'll find as many that are willing to tout the advantages too. You'll also find plenty of folks that are willing to help you out along the way, assuming that you have a positive attitude and strong work ethic. I've had plenty of mentors on my career path, and I'm more than happy to help you in yours... PM me, I'd be happy to talk shop with you, share my experiences- good or bad, and offer some advice on how to land that dream job.

~Josh

ChrisH

SkyHigh,

I appreciate you giving me the bad side of aviation. But, there are goods and bads, ups and downs to any industry and career field. You have been able to open up a succesful business. But, what is the statistic; one business opens and fails every six seconds, or something like that? Other fields experience bad times as well. The healthcare industry is having a hard time now. Engineers are having jobs outsourced. Plants are being shut down. My sister who has a business degree, and has worked in management for a retail company for over 10 years recently lost her job, because her company was bought out by another, and did away with her position. This came at a time when she and her husband just bought a house, and found out they are expecting their first child.

My point above is that it is not just aviation. I could take your advice and stay away from aviation, but many years from now, I don't want to be regreting it, when I'm wondering if I could be a UPS or FedEx captain at that moment. I am majoring in something other than aviation, and am prepared for it if I have, or want to get out.

Just a curious question. You said that if you stayed with Horizon, you would be making only $50K as a captain right now. I looked up Horizon pay on this site, and a CRJ700 captain will make ~$65K first year. A DH4 captain will make ~$60K first year, and a DH8 captain will make ~$45K first year. I will assume if you stayed with Horizon you would be a first or second year DH8 CA? Note that the above exclude per diem, and assume only flying the minimum guarantee.

I also think we have to realize that the grass is not always greener. I have a friend, as I mentioned in an earlier post, that has a degree in computer information systems. He, before graduating, worked in a internship that didn't pay. He now, after graduating, works a job, free-lance, with a guy doing website stuff. He gets paid about $240/week. He recently interviewed for a job with the state as a computer programmer/analyst. Starting pay; $30-$35K. His pay will top off, many years from now, at $60K, assuming he gets the job. Even when I tell him of making $30K as a regional FO, he thinks that is GREAT! He even made the comment one day that he should become a pilot too. Dare I mention to him what a UPS captain makes. Should I stay out of aviation, and do what he does, even though I would stand to make the same or more topped off even if I spent a career at a regional? Some would say yes, but I would not be happy. The grass is not always greener. People in other careers, such as my friend, are not exactly pulling in tons of money, and most careers will top off at the $60-$80K range anyway.

preludespeeder

sky high,

i am trying to understand how you figrued your captain pay if you had stayed at horizon for the 8 year upgrade to captain. by my interpertation of the data on this site you would be making anywhere from 60k to 82k as an 8 year captain. The pay i figure is given on the basis that you do not start over with pay, you slide over, years is referred to time with the company not time in the position. refer to this topic:http://forums.airlinepilotcentral.co...ighlight=pilot

now looking at the income and tax brackets for united states data 23.3% of the population paid the 28% or higher tax bracket. to pay the 28% tax bracket in 2005 you need to make 72k or higher. that is the lowest possible wage you can make in that bracket.

now what i interept that as is that even a 8 year captain at horizon can make a wage that is considered to be in the top 24% of the united states and you are complaining that the pay is to low. i think you need to set your standerds a little bit more into the reality of the country.

i myself understand that living in big cities is expensive but one of the things that sells me on the airlines is the fact that i can live alot of places while still stationed at a particular airport. worst case for me is a six hour flight. in some cities your will spend two to three hours in traffic just trying to get home from that desk job. i know you people will say that you have to drive home from the airport but i moved out the big city to avoid traffic in this scenario so my drive home is under an hour.

i think that some people get closed minded about the reality of the pay in united states and the cost of things around them. houses for the last five years have been going up and selling at a rate never seen. but the median income is around 50k, some states are higher and some are lower. that tells me that people can afford to raise famlies and buy these high priced homes with the income they make. why is it pilots seem to complain that they can not. if someone has the answer to my misunderstanding please point it out.

To the answer the QOL at home question, to me it is more about how you are when you are home, if you work a job that has you home every night to observe every breath of your kids life but you are miserble at this job what good is it to be home. but if you are at a job you enjoy and when you are home you are happy about your life regardless of money issues, those are usually self inflicted, then the QOL at home is not about quantity but quality.

these are my thoughts into the complaints coming from pilots about how bad this industry is. self inflicted misery

boxhauler

but even now if FedEx were to call with a class date it would be a very difficult decision Skyhigh, that statement alone is all the proof I need that you are just a bitter, wannabe pilot who gets his kicks from ****ing on the proffession that passed him by. give it a rest man go back to whatever it is do now.

ChrisH

I don't want to agree quite as harshly as the above response, but I think he does have a point.

From reading your posts, it seems as though you would love nothing more than to be flying right now. It also seems as though you have some regrets about some decisions you made during your stint as a pilot; in particular, the move from Horizon (I assume) to National. It sounds as though you were, or were soon to become, a Captain at Horizon when you left there for National. Obviously when National went under, you lost your job there. This left you with just below the requirements necessary to get on with someone like UPS, FedEx, SWA, CAL, JetBlue, AirTran, etc. Your only real choice, with the airlines at least, would be to start over at the regionals; something you didn't want to do. Had you stayed with Horizon, not only woud you be living a pretty decent life as a Captain with them right now, but you would probably easily have, and exceed the requirements to apply to UPS, FedEx, SWA, etc., if you weren't on with them already. I think looking back, you have some regrets about this. I think in some ways you are justifying this by forming a bitter and negative opinion about the industry, when in fact, it isn't quite that bad.

One thing I have seen you do in other threads, is blame the young new comers, and aspiring pilots, like myself, for the downfall of the industry; blaming people like me for accepting low paying jobs to fly a jet. Yet, you left Horizon to fly 757s for National, an airline that, according to you, would only pay their Captains $55K. Is this not lowering the bar to accept 757 pay that low? You would have been better off, and made more money to stay at Horizon, than to accept that pay; the only conclusion I have, as to why you would accept that, is the chance to fly a 757; it couldn't have been for pay.

As posted by preludespeeder, the national average income is about $50K. I think it is actually lower than that. In 2004 it was about $44,338. Looking at pilot pay, it really isn't that bad as a whole. Even a regional Captain makes more than the national average salary. I keep using ExpressJet as an example, but I'll do it again. Lets say that a F/O upgrades at 5 years. His starting Captain pay will be $60K, excluding per diem, and assuming he only flies the minimum monthly guarantee. Add per diem, and assume he flies over the guarantee, and you are looking at making $65K or more, easily. Is this a great salary? No. Is it enough to live? Yes. Is it above the national average? Yes.

dittidano

The Aviation industry is like any other industry; pay is low and you have to put your time in to make good money. I am a single guy, I make around 30k a year and I live in Alaska. I live a good life right now, dont get me wrong 30k is not a lot by any means, but I seem to live a great life; even here in alaska. Teachers here in Anchorage start out at 33k a year; and every year they have to take classes for continuing education. furthermore, the teachers pay for these classes, which are online classes and are very expensive. Subtract the cont'd edu classes from thier salary; thier salary is not much at all. Anchorage School District teachers used to be the highest paid in the country, i dont know if that is the case anymore, it doesnt sound like it from previous post. The teachers here top out at around 70k a year and it takes around 12 years and lots of money on contd edu classes to do so. I have a few friends that are teachers here in ANC. They bust their butts, one claims that it takes atleast 3 hours a night of extra work to be a good worthwhile teacher. So take in consideration that they spend 10 hrs a day doing school stuff, time on the weekends doing school stuff, completing their contd edu credits(which they pay for), and all for a low salary. I like being a pilot

LAfrequentflyer

Who do you work for in Alaska?

_LA

SkyHigh

You Guys,

BoxHauler

Yup I am a bit bitter, but also I have a different perspective on the industry since I lived it from before 911 until now. Additionally now that I have fallen out of love (so to speak) with aviation and can see it in its true form I don't like what I see. I voice my opinions to new pilots so that they have a different opinion to think about. And, no I probably wouldn't take a job at FedEx or UPS at this point in my life. I do miss flying but understand the benefits and luxury that it is to live a life at home with my family. My wife is due to give birth to our fourth son any day now. If I were flying still I probably would be missing it and not be able to help my family. Someday you will have a wife and kids and will suffer the useless feeling of being 3000 miles away when there is a crisis at home and there is nothing you can do about it.

ChrisH, Speeder

My main point is that the pay isn't worth the efforts and is woefully below what the job requires. By my calculations (and I have several friends who work there too) using the APC information and 8 year dash8 capt would earn $56,544 per year. Lets take a look at this: 5 years of college, 5 years as a CFI (in most cases), 7 years as an FO = 17 years of effort to finally earn a starting firefighter wage. (The starting wage of a firefighter in the PDX area is 49K plus overtime opportunities.) We could look at other professions if you like. The point isn't if Horizon Pays a livable wage or if they really earn less than a school teacher, but to point out that pilots should earn a lot more than these other professions and not be struggling to keep pace with them because the efforts and risks are so high. As the years go by Pilots are fighting to hold ground while the rest of the world is passing us by. The majors are sinking to a place where they really don't pay all that much more and seem more risky than the regionals.

Using my Horizon example (which I feel is a good realistic average) The pilot would have around 20 years invested before he is competitive enough to apply to a major and start all over again. If this seems like a good deal to you then have at it. Flying is fun (at times) but all that sacrifice risk and loss just isn't worth it to most. I wanted to have a better life as a pilot. My dreams were to have more time off with my family and a better income to properly support them with. That isn't the case these days and you guys are working to prove that you probably will not starve as a future pilot. How does this make any sense to you? Do you have any dreams of having a family of your own? Do you ever hope to retire someday? Do you really think that at 40 you would enjoy being a new hire on reserve in a strange city making 26K per year? I can assure you that it is NO FUN. By then you should be enjoying a healthy paycheck and living your best years with your family.

You guys come armed with a different perspective than my generation had. We had our sights on making a better life for ourselves. You are steeling yourselves for a life of poverty, prepared to accept less. It is for those reasons that I feel that the industry is doomed. If you are already defending a teachers salary as good enough then I fear what will happen when you guys hit the market. Best of luck. Enjoy your careers. Sombody has to do it I guess. I am glad it isn't me anymore.

As always your friend,

SkyHigh