1jetpilot

You go, Skyhigh. Y'all should give Skyhigh for being in the industry and doing his homework. Skyhigh and I were in the same commuter and knows what it is like to start at $14,000 a year. Yes, you saw it right, $14,000 a year and that is gross, after taxes with all the deductions you will be lucky to make 11000 a yr. Try raising a baby and a wife in an apartment where it rains all the time with no friends or family around making only 11000 a year. Yes, regional airlines have improve in their salaries, but that is what it was when Skyhigh and I started. Hmmm let me think what a teacher makes his or her first year.....30K? And an FO makes 14K? Do The Math and welcome to the world of aviation.

Bluejob

I think anyone who has been at a commuter can see Skyhigh's points.

Commuter pay sucks, and with inflation it is getting worse. I would recommend teaching over aviation any day.

Regards

SkyHigh

Fellas,

You all are assuming that you will make it to the majors. There is not enough room for even a few of us. Even then it doesnt pay that well anymore. Especially when you consider all the sacrifice loss and risk that you have to endure to get there.

Even the majors these days are not that spectacular of a job anymore. My cousin is a LA county sheriff's deputy and has been one for the past 15 years and makes almost as much as an Alaska Airlines Captain and expects to retire in 7 years. He will be in his upper 40's by then. Pilots have a funny way of putting the blinders on and ignoring the obvious. I used the teachers salary and benefits since most think that they don't earn very much.

Someone mentioned the long hours that a teacher puts in. Well I would like to point out that pilots can put in some real long hours. During my time at Horizon Air it was all too common to have more than 400 hours of time away from base. Long 14 hour duty days, short nights in cheap hotels. Then the joys of airport reserve and standing around strange airports waiting for a jump seat home. Ask someone who has spent too many nights in hotel rooms and they will tell you that it doesnt really count as time off.

I have a friend who just got hired by a local high school as a biology teacher. The school is paying him almost 50K his first year and has promised to pay off all his student loans after 5 years of service. There is no comparison. A teachers job isn't great but is is hugely better than an average regional career.

A lucky few might make it to the big dough a decade or so before retirement but at such a late age most of the benefits are lost. Now if someone really wishes to go through the exercise we can pull out the graph paper and calculator and I can show you that the school teacher is much better off in the long and short run. And we haven't even addressed other better career choices that can be made. In my home state a 23 year old new hire firefighter will make more than the best career at domestic major airline over his career. By the time most of you get off probation at your first real job the firefighter will be retired and starting a second career.

My point is that it takes so much sacrifice, effort and risk to make it anywhere in the airlines that if a pilot were to focus that energy into a more positive direction they might be able to make something of themselves.

SkyHigh

ChrisH

SkyHigh,

We all know someone who makes this, or makes that, and their salary happens to be more than a Alaska CA, SWA CA, UPS CA, etc, etc. Pilots cannot expect that they will, or should make more than everyone else, and as soon as someone does make more, it is not worth it, and the industry, and pay is down the tubes. Everybody has at least someone who makes more than them. Donald Trump has people who make more than him.

Teachers, nurses, policemen, firefighters, etc., are all some of the lowest paying career fields there are, yet they DO deserve to make more money. Should people not become any of the above because they stand to probably make very little money. Starting pay for a police officer where I live is about $26K/year. With the time spent through the police academy, 12+ hour shifts, including many overnights, and to top that off, the danger associated with the job, is it not worth it? Yet every year they televise the many graduating to become police officers here. There are some police officers, firefighters, etc., who make much more than that, but it is usually only in large cities like LA, NY, etc., and not your typical medium to small town/city police officer, etc., who probably make up the majority.

Making things a little more personal: My Dad has two college degree. One is Respitory Therapy, and another in Hospital Administration. He has been working in administration for this current hospital for almost 22 years, not including the number of years he worked previous to that as a respitory therapist at other hospitals. He is now, at 56, making $80K. My Mom is a nurse, and has been a nurse for over 15 years. She makes $45K.

Why do I say the above? It may take 20 years to reach the $80K upper end of regional pay. I could spend those 20 years doing something like my Dad, or spend a career at a regional, and make the same pay, most likely, within the same time period. If I were hired TODAY by ASA, SkyWest, ExpressJet, etc., assuming upgrades stay within the 2-4 year range, I within three years (average of 2-4 year upgrade) with an upgrade to CA, can be making more than my Mom who has been working as a nurse for over 15 years. This is based on the pay I posted in my post above, which are pay rates taken directly from this website. I, personally, would rather fly.

SkyHigh

ChrisH,

It sounds like you live in a small town. Your regional job will most likely be in a big city. The median price for a home in Seattle right now is 380K. In Los Angles it is around 500K for an average home. To you 30K might seem like it is a great income but in the city it doesnt go far at all. You are assuming a lot and you have mostly best case scenarios going through your head. I can assure you that it usually doesn't work out that way.

I guess that you will have to find out for yourself, but you are dead wrong.

Best of luck.

SkyHigh

ChrisH

SkyHigh,

I live on the outskirts of Baton Rouge. Not a 'small' town, but a small to medium sized city.

As far as a $30K salary is concerned. I never said that was a lot of money. It is, however, not a BAD salary for someone young, single, and just starting out. The average starting salary out of college right now is about $30-$40K. I have a friend who is graduating with a degree in marketing this week. In the coming week, he has an interview with a company. If he gets the job, he will stand to make about $30K. Another friend of mine recently interviewed for a position with the state as a computer programmer/analyst. He stands to start at around $30-$35K. I know a couple of regional FOs, both within their first couple of years or so making between $30-$40K. What is the difference? Neither are great salaries, but neither are making more or less than the other necessarily. The only one who has the upside, if any, is the state guy, assuming he gets the job, because of government/state benefits as far as retirement.

With the same above people. Assuming the regional guys spend their career with the regional, and are unable/decide not to go on to the majors, they, along with the other two guys will all stand to top off around $80K or so. In fact, the computer anaylst friend was telling me his pay would top off at around $60K. Not many other career fields offer salaries that go beyond the $80K mark, many don't reach that mark; not all, but many.

My point is not that those salaries are great, but that most other typical/average career fields are not starting, making, or topping off any higher necessarily than regional pilots. A range of $30K-$80K is your typical salary range for most careers. I would rather take that salary range flying than being a computer analyst, a hospital administrator, or in marketing. And I have no desire to be a doctor, engineer, or any other of those type professions that would offer me any more than that. If I can make it to the majors and make more, than great. If I decide I hate flying, and want to do something else, well that is why I am majoring in something else.

I am not quite as nieve as you think I am. I realize what salaries are livable, and not. I never said any specific salary was good, or bad. I just know that there are no other career fields I am interested in that will give me a much different salary range starting off, mid, or topping off than even staying with a regional. And, if I am luky to make it to the majors, I know of very few other fields that would offer me those type salaries, such as UPS, SWA, etc., at least no other fields I would be interested in.

FlyerJosh

SkyHigh,

This is why I don't really respect your opposite point of view. Just because it didn't work for you, and the industry/career choices you made didn't live up to your personal expectations doesn't mean that they won't (or havent) for other individuals out there.

I'm sorry it didn't work out for you. sh!tty deal. But there are those of us who actually enjoy flying. Could I make more on the outside world? Perhaps. Does it suck to start at the bottom as a CFI and have to work your way up? Sure.

I'm 5 years out of college. I've had four different flying jobs (CFI, Airline, Contract Pilot, Corporate). In those 5 years (plus 4 more learning to fly), I've logged 4000+ hours and two type ratings.

I've worked as both a CFI and regional pilot (FO) in a major metro area (Washington DC).

I make upwards of the mid-50K mark total compensation (which is first year pay at my current job). That surpasses what a 5 year teacher in the Washington DC area makes by the way.

Have I had some stumbles along the way? Sure. Did everything work out quite like I expected it to? No. (I wouldn't be furloughed if it had). But have I continued to persist? You better believe it.

We all make our own choices in life. What you make of them is up to you. Some people are willing to make the sacrifices and take the steps necessary to have an aviation career. Obviously you weren't.

Don't try and drag the rest of us into your misery. Many of us aren't willing to join you.

SkyHigh

Guys,

I don't really care what you do. Get out there. Work for minimum wage. Get beaten up by management. Work the long hours and sit idle while life passes you by. My only intent is to bring in a little glimpse of what the reality is for most. Pilots and future pilots have a way of slipping into denial and only looking at the most positive side of the industry. They loose touch with what the rest of the world is doing, and before they realize it they have lost more than they ever intended.

Josh you don't know anything about me. You don't know what I have endured and the depths I have gone to make it happen. I don't want to write a book here but it was plenty. More than most of what your generation will go through. You have already invested 9 years into this career and live in the big city and probably are earning less than a DCA city bus driver at 50K, but if you are happy with that good for you.

My generation wasn't masochistic. We got into aviation because we liked it and expected to make a better living and have a better life than most. We didn't have school loans or grants. We worked two jobs and bought the time as we could. Today any goof ball with parents stupid enough to co-sign the loan can buy himself a career in 12-14 months. The industry is flooded.

The good jobs are going away fast. Most flying jobs pay less than a school teacher and the pay is still falling and the work load still increasing. There is no logic to blowing a college education on an aviation degree then chasing it with 40-65K in flight training expenses to get a job that pays less than that of a police officer. Most rational people would have a problem with that, but you guys are still lining up for a thrashing.

The latest post 911 crop of pilots are different. They are into the "thrill" of it. They are starry eyed joy riders who are custom made for management to beat even more concessions out of. Eventually even you will figure it out. I am just trying to bring up a few points that might make you stop and think for a bit before you sign up for $942 monthly payments on a career that pays 18K.

In closing I am a career failure. I would not accept the low wages, layoffs and awful working conditions anymore. Since then I have had a much easier, happier and satisfying life. My family is happier as well and we all get to live in a place of our own choosing. I miss flying every day and that is why I enjoy the privilege of being able to write posts to you guys who are still out there in the storm. However I had to make an adult decision and choose the best for my family and I am glad I did. Perhaps I will be able to buy a new maule someday, but even now if FedEx were to call with a class date it would be a very difficult decision.

SkyHigh

ChrisH

It is unfortunate that you had the experience you did, and the carriers you flew for did not work out for you, at least with National. If you were on with SWA, FedEx, UPS, CAL, and others, I would assume your opinion would be different. You would probably be making over $100K now, and living a good life.

Are there hardships and obstacles to become a pilot? Yes. Is this a reason not to become a pilot? No. What if I made the same salary as a DC bus driver or a pilot? I don't want to drive a bus, I want to fly airplanes. The issue to me is not about who makes as much or more than me, I don't want to do those other jobs.

People are not all spending $150K on training and education to become a pilot. In fact, if you go to a local state university, and get your ratings from a local FBO, you are not talking about anywhere near $150K. You are probably looking at maybe a third or fourth of that. And the $18K is first year. If someone flies for ASA, in three years, assuming upgrades stay as they are, they will be a first year captain making $50K. Not a salary that is going to buy you a $5M home, but a decent salary. As I mentioned, my friend who is a computer programmer/analyst will top off at $60K, many years beyond my third or fourth year $50K. So should he go into something else too? The grass is always greener. I am glad that you are doing well now outside of aviation, but others are doing just as well inside aviation, and one person's 'lack of success' does not automatically mean others will experience the same thing. The pilots I know love the job, are doing well, and would not do anything else ... and that includes some with the regionals.

LAfrequentflyer

Chris, Where do you live? I grew up in KLFT...

-LA