Free Beer
09-27-2007, 01:17 PM
#1
APC co-founder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: B777
Posts: 5,853
Free Beer
I was recently called a censor for removing a post that very clearly violated the forum rules. I've been called worse, but because there may be some confusion about this resource, I wanted to take a moment to revisit the forum rules and a little background on the APC forum. As the site owner, I want to point out that Airline Pilot Central Forums is a private web site with Terms of Service (TOS) that allow us to remove any user or post for any reason. We've been through the first amendment discussion already, do a search if you need to, but this site is privately owned and your first amendment rights don't apply here.
That said, we have a history of giving users a very wide latitude to express unpopular opinions, waste bandwidth, and even have great dialog with other pilots. We don't charge a fee and we don't require you to look at ads, the owners of this site provide it as a service to the pilot community.
Other forums look to the pilot group as a revenue source, not us, we pay thousands of dollars per year out of pocket to provide pilots what we intend to be a useful resource. We're not funded by a union, airline, or anyone else - it's two pilots footing the bill on their own. We're happy to do it and we not asking for donations, all we ask is for users to observe a few simple rules.
Very simply stated, if users of this board can't abide by the terms of service they agreed to when they registered - go away (on your own or we're happy to show you the door).
As for a self-policing community, this board is what you make it. Our TOS is written to keep the forum a productive, positive, and helpful resource. When the majority of users dictate that personal attacks and low brow dialog is the norm - that'll be the day we throw the forum kill switch and walk away. Users have the ability to privately report violations to the TOS and to publicly post a rebuttal, correction, or admonition (respectfully of course) to violations of the forum rules - again the forum is what you make it.
I firmly believe that differing opinions are healthy, and sometime we might have to agree to disagree. When we disagree, I'd ask if you post here that you check the emotion, and keep it civil.
That said, we have a history of giving users a very wide latitude to express unpopular opinions, waste bandwidth, and even have great dialog with other pilots. We don't charge a fee and we don't require you to look at ads, the owners of this site provide it as a service to the pilot community.
Other forums look to the pilot group as a revenue source, not us, we pay thousands of dollars per year out of pocket to provide pilots what we intend to be a useful resource. We're not funded by a union, airline, or anyone else - it's two pilots footing the bill on their own. We're happy to do it and we not asking for donations, all we ask is for users to observe a few simple rules.
Very simply stated, if users of this board can't abide by the terms of service they agreed to when they registered - go away (on your own or we're happy to show you the door).
As for a self-policing community, this board is what you make it. Our TOS is written to keep the forum a productive, positive, and helpful resource. When the majority of users dictate that personal attacks and low brow dialog is the norm - that'll be the day we throw the forum kill switch and walk away. Users have the ability to privately report violations to the TOS and to publicly post a rebuttal, correction, or admonition (respectfully of course) to violations of the forum rules - again the forum is what you make it.
I firmly believe that differing opinions are healthy, and sometime we might have to agree to disagree. When we disagree, I'd ask if you post here that you check the emotion, and keep it civil.
Registration to this forum is free! We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below. If you agree to the terms, please check the 'I agree' checkbox and press the 'Register' button below. If you would like to cancel the registration, click here to return to the forums index.
Although the administrators and moderators of Airline Pilot Central Forums will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this forum, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of Airline Pilot Central Forums, nor Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.
By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.
The owners of Airline Pilot Central Forums reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason.
The owners of Airline Pilot Central Forums reserve the right to remove any user for any reason.
Additional information you should consider when posting here:
Site Administrators and Moderators have the final say in editing or removing posts from this forum.
Abiding by the following guidelines will make everyone's experience of the forums more enjoyable. We're all here primarily to discuss the piloting profession; we all share in the good and the bad that this industry has to offer. Please use the "good neighbor" policy when posting to this site. If you wouldn't say it to your neighbor face to face, than don't say it here (and we are talking about a hypothetical neighbor that you like and respect, not necessarily your current neighbor).
Topics Not for Discussion
There are currently NO forums that provide a venue for discussing politics or religion. While DreamLaunch Media Ltd. and Airline Pilot Central embrace the diversity the world has to offer, these subjects often are very emotional and there are many different views. In our experience the wide range of views and emotions rarely contribute to a harmonious online community or beneficial contributions to the piloting profession.
Content
NO nudity or links to nudity is allowed, male or female. If you’re looking for porn, this is NOT the place. Any topic that is considered greater than PG-13, with or without images, will be closed and removed without question. User avatars or usernames with image content or suggestive phrases may be removed at the sole discretion of the site administrators.
Security
Any post that in the opinion of the site Administrators and Moderators poses a risk to security at ANY level will be removed without question. Loose lips sink ships.
Commercial Offers - For Sale Threads - Crash Pads - Site Promotion
The APC Forums are not for classified ads or a venue for webmasters to promote their web sites. Any solicitation, link, or promotion may be removed at the sole discretion of the administrators. If you wish to advertise on our forum please contact us to discuss affordable advertising rates.
User Accounts
Forum users are allowed one user account. Users posting under multiple accounts will be removed at the sole discretion of Dreamlaunch Media Ltd. and Airline Pilot Central. De-activating and/or canceling an account is as easy as walking away. User accounts without activity within the preceding year (365 days) will be deleted from the database.
Discretion
What is objectionable to one person may not to be another; the Moderators will use their discretion in this respect. The site Administrators and Moderators carry sole discretion, and their decision will be final. Please respect their decisions. If you have issues with any Moderator decision, contact a Site Mod or Admin through the private message (PM) tool.
Although the administrators and moderators of Airline Pilot Central Forums will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this forum, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of Airline Pilot Central Forums, nor Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.
By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.
The owners of Airline Pilot Central Forums reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason.
The owners of Airline Pilot Central Forums reserve the right to remove any user for any reason.
Additional information you should consider when posting here:
Site Administrators and Moderators have the final say in editing or removing posts from this forum.
Abiding by the following guidelines will make everyone's experience of the forums more enjoyable. We're all here primarily to discuss the piloting profession; we all share in the good and the bad that this industry has to offer. Please use the "good neighbor" policy when posting to this site. If you wouldn't say it to your neighbor face to face, than don't say it here (and we are talking about a hypothetical neighbor that you like and respect, not necessarily your current neighbor).
Topics Not for Discussion
There are currently NO forums that provide a venue for discussing politics or religion. While DreamLaunch Media Ltd. and Airline Pilot Central embrace the diversity the world has to offer, these subjects often are very emotional and there are many different views. In our experience the wide range of views and emotions rarely contribute to a harmonious online community or beneficial contributions to the piloting profession.
Content
NO nudity or links to nudity is allowed, male or female. If you’re looking for porn, this is NOT the place. Any topic that is considered greater than PG-13, with or without images, will be closed and removed without question. User avatars or usernames with image content or suggestive phrases may be removed at the sole discretion of the site administrators.
Security
Any post that in the opinion of the site Administrators and Moderators poses a risk to security at ANY level will be removed without question. Loose lips sink ships.
Commercial Offers - For Sale Threads - Crash Pads - Site Promotion
The APC Forums are not for classified ads or a venue for webmasters to promote their web sites. Any solicitation, link, or promotion may be removed at the sole discretion of the administrators. If you wish to advertise on our forum please contact us to discuss affordable advertising rates.
User Accounts
Forum users are allowed one user account. Users posting under multiple accounts will be removed at the sole discretion of Dreamlaunch Media Ltd. and Airline Pilot Central. De-activating and/or canceling an account is as easy as walking away. User accounts without activity within the preceding year (365 days) will be deleted from the database.
Discretion
What is objectionable to one person may not to be another; the Moderators will use their discretion in this respect. The site Administrators and Moderators carry sole discretion, and their decision will be final. Please respect their decisions. If you have issues with any Moderator decision, contact a Site Mod or Admin through the private message (PM) tool.
Last edited by HSLD; 09-27-2007 at 01:25 PM.
09-30-2007, 09:46 AM
#3
New boss = Old boss
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: Ca B737
Posts: 2,762
I still think you guys are too stringent considering you get a pass from the entire industry for your unilateral decision to publish everyones pay scale.
This site was extremely controversial when it started as "AirlinePilotPay.com" Many people were very upset that you chose to publish other peoples pay in such a public forum. Some people want to keep their paycheck information private. You chose to ignore them and make all airlines pay public.
I, for one, feel getting pay information out there for comparison is healthy but I am still a little bothered by the ease that my neighbors, family and anyone else can know almost exactly what I make.
This may be YOUR site but the information with which you built the site is OURS. You used it without asking. I think you should cut us a little slack.
This site was extremely controversial when it started as "AirlinePilotPay.com" Many people were very upset that you chose to publish other peoples pay in such a public forum. Some people want to keep their paycheck information private. You chose to ignore them and make all airlines pay public.
I, for one, feel getting pay information out there for comparison is healthy but I am still a little bothered by the ease that my neighbors, family and anyone else can know almost exactly what I make.
This may be YOUR site but the information with which you built the site is OURS. You used it without asking. I think you should cut us a little slack.
09-30-2007, 12:04 PM
#4
Administrator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: C-172
Posts: 8,024
Well, glad to hear I am not the only one being called names around here! I've been called a lot of things, but never censor. 
I don't know nothing about nothing, but would like to inquire as to the return of the Photo section. As I recall, there was very little, if any, acrimony over there. The last Safe Haven, if you will. Besides, I surely miss jungle's great photos.
Mike, I don't profess to speak for HSLD, but I think he is referring to the behavior so ubiquitous in the forums, not the main APC website itself. I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong.
I don't know nothing about nothing, but would like to inquire as to the return of the Photo section. As I recall, there was very little, if any, acrimony over there. The last Safe Haven, if you will. Besides, I surely miss jungle's great photos.
Mike, I don't profess to speak for HSLD, but I think he is referring to the behavior so ubiquitous in the forums, not the main APC website itself. I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong.
09-30-2007, 12:38 PM
#5
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 68
I still think you guys are too stringent considering you get a pass from the entire industry for your unilateral decision to publish everyones pay scale.
This site was extremely controversial when it started as "AirlinePilotPay.com" Many people were very upset that you chose to publish other peoples pay in such a public forum. Some people want to keep their paycheck information private. You chose to ignore them and make all airlines pay public.
I, for one, feel getting pay information out there for comparison is healthy but I am still a little bothered by the ease that my neighbors, family and anyone else can know almost exactly what I make.
This may be YOUR site but the information with which you built the site is OURS. You used it without asking. I think you should cut us a little slack.
This site was extremely controversial when it started as "AirlinePilotPay.com" Many people were very upset that you chose to publish other peoples pay in such a public forum. Some people want to keep their paycheck information private. You chose to ignore them and make all airlines pay public.
I, for one, feel getting pay information out there for comparison is healthy but I am still a little bothered by the ease that my neighbors, family and anyone else can know almost exactly what I make.
This may be YOUR site but the information with which you built the site is OURS. You used it without asking. I think you should cut us a little slack.
09-30-2007, 07:31 PM
#6
Chief Jeppesen Updater
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Executive Transport Driver
Posts: 3,080
This site was extremely controversial when it started as "AirlinePilotPay.com" Many people were very upset that you chose to publish other peoples pay in such a public forum. Some people want to keep their paycheck information private. You chose to ignore them and make all airlines pay public.
With that many folks involved with the contract negotiations (or union participating members/employees), there's not one contract that isn't available for the media or public to see if they know where to look or who to ask.
If you don't want your pay info to be out there in cyberspace, find a job where the salary isn't negotiated for the masses.
09-30-2007, 07:34 PM
#7
New boss = Old boss
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: Ca B737
Posts: 2,762
Like it or not, if you work for a company that has a collective bargining agreement, your pay figures (and everything else that is in your contract) is going to be public knowledge- regardless of whether or not this site posts the info.
With that many folks involved with the contract negotiations (or union participating members/employees), there's not one contract that isn't available for the media or public to see if they know where to look or who to ask.
If you don't want your pay info to be out there in cyberspace, find a job where the salary isn't negotiated for the masses.
With that many folks involved with the contract negotiations (or union participating members/employees), there's not one contract that isn't available for the media or public to see if they know where to look or who to ask.
If you don't want your pay info to be out there in cyberspace, find a job where the salary isn't negotiated for the masses.
10-01-2007, 04:35 AM
#8
APC co-founder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: B777
Posts: 5,853
I still think you guys are too stringent considering you get a pass from the entire industry for your unilateral decision to publish everyones pay scale.
This site was extremely controversial when it started as "AirlinePilotPay.com" Many people were very upset that you chose to publish other peoples pay in such a public forum. Some people want to keep their paycheck information private. You chose to ignore them and make all airlines pay public.
I, for one, feel getting pay information out there for comparison is healthy but I am still a little bothered by the ease that my neighbors, family and anyone else can know almost exactly what I make.
This may be YOUR site but the information with which you built the site is OURS. You used it without asking. I think you should cut us a little slack.
This site was extremely controversial when it started as "AirlinePilotPay.com" Many people were very upset that you chose to publish other peoples pay in such a public forum. Some people want to keep their paycheck information private. You chose to ignore them and make all airlines pay public.
I, for one, feel getting pay information out there for comparison is healthy but I am still a little bothered by the ease that my neighbors, family and anyone else can know almost exactly what I make.
This may be YOUR site but the information with which you built the site is OURS. You used it without asking. I think you should cut us a little slack.
10-01-2007, 06:59 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: The IPA EB speaks for me
Posts: 530
I appreciate the website. Since most companies have HOURLY wages, not annual salaries, your neighbors DO NOT know what you make a year. They may understand your minimum hour guarentee and be able to know the minimum you make a year, but not what you actually make unless you said you only sit at home on reserve and get the minimums- but then you'd have disclosed as many of the puzzle pieces as APC.
This website was a great help in getting near real time and accurate, even when free information out there when in the job market!
I haven't been in the situation where I felt the need to hide my wages, but I've been in the gov't for 12 years where my baseline wages are known- not my tax status, per diem or other income... I don't want my 1040s public access- but folks knew what I "made" a year.
This website was a great help in getting near real time and accurate, even when free information out there when in the job market!
I haven't been in the situation where I felt the need to hide my wages, but I've been in the gov't for 12 years where my baseline wages are known- not my tax status, per diem or other income... I don't want my 1040s public access- but folks knew what I "made" a year.
Last edited by MoosePileit; 10-01-2007 at 07:00 AM. Reason: tense, as in verb, not the subject
10-01-2007, 07:45 AM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,242
All ATP
Commercial Offers - For Sale Threads - Crash Pads - Site Promotion
The APC Forums are not for classified ads or a venue for webmasters to promote their web sites. Any solicitation, link, or promotion may be removed at the sole discretion of the administrators. If you wish to advertise on our forum please contact us to discuss affordable advertising rates.
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I don't see how my posts advocating ATP flight training constitute 'commercail offers.'
Anyway. Good site. I didn't realize pilot pay was confidential.
I always presumed even regional pilots were making 100K+ a year after 3-4 years on the job. I use to think regional guys flew cargo / prop planes in the military and the guys at the majors flew fighters. I didn't even realize pilots were civilian trained. I never met a single civilian trained pilot until I stepped foot in an FBO.
I use to think flight training / airline career was so out of reach for the average person.How wrong was I? I can retire in Jan 09 and be working as a 121 FO by Jan 10.
The APC Forums are not for classified ads or a venue for webmasters to promote their web sites. Any solicitation, link, or promotion may be removed at the sole discretion of the administrators. If you wish to advertise on our forum please contact us to discuss affordable advertising rates.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't see how my posts advocating ATP flight training constitute 'commercail offers.'
Anyway. Good site. I didn't realize pilot pay was confidential.
I always presumed even regional pilots were making 100K+ a year after 3-4 years on the job. I use to think regional guys flew cargo / prop planes in the military and the guys at the majors flew fighters. I didn't even realize pilots were civilian trained. I never met a single civilian trained pilot until I stepped foot in an FBO.
I use to think flight training / airline career was so out of reach for the average person.How wrong was I? I can retire in Jan 09 and be working as a 121 FO by Jan 10.
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