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Old 11-01-2024, 06:27 AM
  #4241  
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
The Holocaust was the fault of everyone who participated in it. Hitler did not personally kill 6 million Jews. But what ALLOWED him to accomplish that through intermediaries was centuries of antisemitism - and the collaboration of many non-Germans.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/history/articles/myth-of-innocent-poles-holocaust-history

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/norway


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-11/report-finds-finnish-soldiers-were-complicit-in-wwii-atrocities/10798222

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36489700

https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/genocide/jewish_deportation_01.shtml

And even those who were unquestionably war criminals were sometimes excused for their actions if they had desirable skills. Read up on Operation Paperclip. Guys like Hubertus Strughold and Werner VonBraun.

Now I understand you prefer simplistic thoughts, like it was all Hitler's fault and all Putin's fault, but it really is far more complicated than that. Not only did they have plenty of help, but there were centuries of actions preceding the birth of either of these men that enabled them and millions of willing followers.

That's just reality. H€LL, that's why we study history.


A big clue should be that you needed multiple paragraphs of word salad to blame virtually everyone on the planet EXCEPT Hitler for the Holocaust.



What you denigrate as "simplistic" is what most people call 'honest'.


.
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Old 11-01-2024, 08:31 AM
  #4242  
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Originally Posted by Profane Kahuna
A big clue should be that you needed multiple paragraphs of word salad to blame virtually everyone on the planet EXCEPT Hitler for the Holocaust.



What you denigrate as "simplistic" is what most people call 'honest'.


.
No. You used the term "simple." There is nothing as simple as Hitler = Holocaust. That's 'simply' ignorance, and denies the wider cultural effects of centuries of antisemitism in Europe that proceeded that,

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conte...lism-1800-1918

or the impoverishment of Germany by the reparations required by the Treaty of Versailles that led to the demise of the Weimar Republic, hyperinflation, etc.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Ger...crisis-1920-23

So yes, simplistic.
From Merriam-Webster Webster:

simplistic

adjective


sim·​plis·​tic sim-ˈpli-stik
Synonyms of simplistic
: excessively simple or simplified : treating a problem or subject with false simplicity by omitting or ignoring complicating factors or details
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Old 11-01-2024, 09:39 AM
  #4243  
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Clemenza was right. Germany should’ve stopped Hitler at Munich in ‘23. Russia, Putin at the constitutional revision waiving his term limit in 2020. This crap never ends. Still nowhere near Yankee turf, plain &…simple.
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Old 11-01-2024, 04:29 PM
  #4244  
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Russia has called in the heavy hitters.

Steven Seagal spotted in Kursk oblast.
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Old 11-01-2024, 05:36 PM
  #4245  
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Originally Posted by ReluctantEskimo
Russia has called in the heavy hitters.

Steven Seagal spotted in Kursk oblast.
https://i.imgur.com/YEJBVyc.jpeg
Serb. Got WW1 ignited if memory serves?
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Old Yesterday, 05:45 AM
  #4246  
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
And that money was authorized way back on 23 April. That's five months and eight days ago. So how much of that has actually GOTTEN to Ukraine? This is what Zelensky said yesterday:





https://www.kyivpost.com/post/41431

So it looks like the Repubs slow rolling an authorization ain't the only problem.
That highlights the fecklessness of last year's Republican stunt - arms shipments and deliveries are never as simple as driving down to the corner to get gas. You can't blame fighters for not being successful if you kneecap them.
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Old Yesterday, 08:51 AM
  #4247  
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Originally Posted by Sliceback
That highlights the fecklessness of last year's Republican stunt - arms shipments and deliveries are never as simple as driving down to the corner to get gas. You can't blame fighters for not being successful if you kneecap them.
Except - as the Biden administration said - athird of the money was to be spent in the US to backfill ordnance and equipment that had already been sent to Ukraine, another quarter to order weapons that would have to be built and delivered months to years later:

MARK EPISKOPOS
MAR 08, 2024There is little secret that proponents of total victory in Ukraine have trained their focus on ensuring that a $60 billion Ukraine military aid package, introduced by the Biden administration late last year, is passed by Congress. Its backers claim this aid is of vital, even existential importance, but what effects could this package actually have on the battlefronts in Ukraine and what is really at stake in the debate over Ukraine aid more broadly?

The funding, part of a larger $95 billion supplemental package for Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan, allocates $20 billion to replenish Department of Defense stockpiles after previous rounds of Ukraine aid, around $14 billion for Ukraine to purchase weapons from U.S. entities, $15 billion in support including intelligence services and military training, and $8 billion in direct budget support for the Ukrainian government
And it didn't address the most severe problems facing Ukraine:


The AFU faces a cascade of critical challenges; prime among them are its growing shortage of troops and its dire munitions deficit in what, according to Ukrainian officials, has become an “artillery war.” The aid package strives to alleviate Ukraine’s mounting shell hunger, but money does not directly translate into readily-available munitions. It is not clear how many shells, and how quickly, the U.S. can send Ukraine even if the supplemental was approved today. Russia, according to estimates by RUSI from earlier this year, fires10,000 artillery rounds per day. Consider, for a sense of scale, that European annual production by February 2023 totaled just 300,000 rounds — or roughly what Russia has spent every month in Ukraine. Russia — which is believed to have made around 2 million artillery shells in 2023 — outproduced its Western counterparts at a rate of seven to one, according to an Estonian intelligence assessment from last year.

Kyiv’s severe materiel deficits are accompanied by equally serious manpower shortages, a problem that the West cannot alleviate short of direct military intervention in Ukraine. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has struggled to craft a viable mobilization strategy amid spiking domestic divisions even as the number of foreign volunteers has declined from its peak of 20,000 in early 2022. These shortages are driven not only by Ukrainian casualties, which reportedly exceed the 31,000 total combat deaths claimed by Zelenskyy last month, but by depopulation trends so stark as to verge on demographic collapse. Kyiv must likewise grapple with the second-order effects of waging a prolonged and costly total war; a more expansive mobilization program would take even more people out of the labor force, further straining Ukraine’s limping wartime economy.
​​​​​​​
​​​​​​​ In short, the Ukrainian war effort is on life support. Its collapse is, for the first time since the Russian invasion commenced in 2022, now a distinct possibility. What can the $60 billion aid package achieve in light of these grim realities? It will undoubtedly help Ukraine impose costs on and slow the pace of Russian advances. Though it will not forestall the continued threat of a collapse, it will likely give the AFU a lease on life through the coming months. But, as Sen. J.D. Vance (R-Ohio) accurately observed, it “is not going to fundamentally change the reality on the battlefield.”

Importantly, to acknowledge the limits of Western aid is not the same as suggesting that there is absolutely no value in continuing to support Ukraine. Indeed, a scenario in which the AFU collapses and Ukraine gets steamrolled by Russian forces would be dangerous for everyone involved and make it more difficult to reach a durable settlement. But it is equally true that any plan to support Ukraine must be coupled with a sober assessment of what can and cannot be achieved at this stage in the war.

Prospects of continued Western aid to Ukraine are an important, if not principal, source of leverage vis-a-vis Moscow in this war, but leverage tends to dissipate if left untapped. The problem is not aid as such but, rather, a continued insistence on maximalist war aims that are increasingly detached from this war’s realities.

​​​​​​​
https://responsiblestatecraft.org/ukraine-aid/

As much as I'm sure you would like to blame this disaster on the Repubs I think a better target for your ire would be those who led the Ukrainians down the primrose path to this disaster - politicians in both parties - who were either ignorant about the true state of NATO conventional warfare capabilities or who simply didn't care that they were egging the Ukrainians on into a fight that they couldn't win, uncaring about the casualties that woukd ensue.
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Old Yesterday, 09:29 AM
  #4248  
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
As much as I'm sure you would like to blame this disaster on the Repubs I think a better target for your ire would be those who led the Ukrainians down the primrose path to this disaster - politicians in both parties - who were either ignorant about the true state of NATO conventional warfare capabilities or who simply didn't care that they were egging the Ukrainians on into a fight that they couldn't win, uncaring about the casualties that woukd ensue.
To say we've egged the Ukrainians into a fight is to completely ignore that they were invaded (twice, or three times if you break out Crimea from the Donbas). They were not remotely ready the first time their neighbor launched a surprise invasion, but with our help they were much better prepared most recently. Given another decade to reform its armed forces while integrating with the west, and Ukraine would have been out of Putins reach forever. He knew the window of opportunity to seal his fantasy of greatness was limited. This is all on Putin and his Napoleon complex (you could reasonably argue it was Yeltsin's fault for installing him into power in the first place). It was not due to NATO expansion, as I'm sure the Russians were just as aware as you and I that NATO was a paper tiger sorely in need of investment.

If anything NATO membership should be expanded to Ukraine ASAP to include stationing U.S./NATO troops inside Ukraine. Between that or slinging nukes (since you keep saying those are the only choices), it is easily the best option to put a quick stop to this and bottle Putin up until he drops dead. The Russian military is a less than a paper tiger now, it is crippled and bleeding out the entire country fighting for scraps of territory laced with UXOs. Before the Cold War ended, their Air Force seemed fearsome. Now I know better, we'd wipe them from the skies in short order if they picked a fight. One thing we still have plenty of is aerial munitions and delivery platforms.
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Old Yesterday, 10:52 AM
  #4249  
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Originally Posted by CLazarus
To say we've egged the Ukrainians into a fight is to completely ignore that they were invaded (twice, or three times if you break out Crimea from the Donbas). They were not remotely ready the first time their neighbor launched a surprise invasion, but with our help they were much better prepared most recently. Given another decade to reform its armed forces while integrating with the west, and Ukraine would have been out of Putins reach forever. He knew the window of opportunity to seal his fantasy of greatness was limited. This is all on Putin and his Napoleon complex (you could reasonably argue it was Yeltsin's fault for installing him into power in the first place). It was not due to NATO expansion, as I'm sure the Russians were just as aware as you and I that NATO was a paper tiger sorely in need of investment.

If anything NATO membership should be expanded to Ukraine ASAP to include stationing U.S./NATO troops inside Ukraine. Between that or slinging nukes (since you keep saying those are the only choices), it is easily the best option to put a quick stop to this and bottle Putin up until he drops dead. The Russian military is a less than a paper tiger now, it is crippled and bleeding out the entire country fighting for scraps of territory laced with UXOs. Before the Cold War ended, their Air Force seemed fearsome. Now I know better, we'd wipe them from the skies in short order if they picked a fight. One thing we still have plenty of is aerial munitions and delivery platforms.
You CAN'T Get Ukraine into NATO because we foolishly expanded NATO to include Hungary and Slovakia, both of which will black ball accepting NATO. New members require unanimous agreement of existing members.

https://www.politico.eu/article/nato-ukraine-slovakia-robert-fico-military-defense-alliance/

https://www.politico.eu/article/viktor-orban-hungary-ukraine-nato-membership-aspirations-twitter/


And we egged them into the fight even before the Russians took Crimea.

https://www.cato.org/commentary/us-n...putin-admit-it

An excerpt:

In his 2014 memoir, Duty, Robert M. Gates, who served as secretary of defense in both Bush’s administration and Barack Obama’s, conceded that “trying to bring Georgia and Ukraine into NATO was truly overreaching.” That initiative, he concluded, was a case of “recklessly ignoring what the Russians considered their own vital national interests.”

Indeed it was, and Moscow began to push back. Putin exploited a foolish provocation by Georgia’s pro-Western government to launch a military offensive that penetrated deeply into the country. Upon its victory, Russia permanently detached two secessionist-minded Georgian regions and put them under permanent Russian control.

The Kremlin’s decisive action should have alerted even slow-learning U.S. leaders that the days of Russian officials merely issuing verbal protests about the West’s steady encroachment into Russia’s security sphere were over. Amazingly, though, the Obama administration still sought to turn Ukraine into a NATO political and military asset. In late 2013 and early 2014, the United States and several European governments meddled shamelessly to support the efforts of demonstrators to unseat Ukraine’s generally pro-Russia president, Victor Yanukovych, some two years before the expiration of his term.

That campaign was especially inappropriate since Yanukovych became president in 2010 as the result of an election that even the European Union and other international observers acknowledged was reasonably free and fair. In a democratic system, the legal way to remove a president from office is, depending on a specific country’s constitutional rules, through a parliamentary vote of no-confidence, impeachment, or defeat in the next election. Angry street demonstrations do not fit into any of those categories, yet the United States and its allies backed that illegal process. A recording of the infamous leaked telephone call between Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt confirmed the extent of Washington’s meddling in the affairs of a sovereign country.

​​​​​​​
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Old Yesterday, 01:38 PM
  #4250  
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
You CAN'T Get Ukraine into NATO because we foolishly expanded NATO to include Hungary and Slovakia, both of which will black ball accepting NATO. New members require unanimous agreement of existing members.

And we egged them into the fight even before the Russians took Crimea.
I frankly wouldn't ever reference the opinions of the Libertarian Cato Institute (Charles Koch was one of the founders). Let's not pretend it doesn't flat out advocate for a preset agenda masked by its authoritative sounding name.

We got Finland and Sweden in, and we can twist arms to make Hungary and Slovakia fall into line next time. And even if that is too much trouble, I know what I'd do unilaterally if I was in charge (I won't say because I don't want to give it away before the next Democratic administration takes office, surprise in this case is very important).

And no, we didn't egg Ukraine into a fight when people poured into the streets to remove an utterly corrupt leader (and wannabe zookeeper). They were drawn out by Yanukovych and his puppetmaster, Vladimir Vladimirovich. Their democracy has been doing fairly well ever since, unlike Russia's. Maybe complain about that instead.
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