Excargodog

Let us rephrase that. Through the expansion of NATO eastward we have managed to poke the paranoia of Russia to the point that probably a half million casualties have been created, Ukraine has sustained major infrastructure damage, and RUSSIA, CHINA, NORTH KOREA, and IRAN, have been driven closer together and are now sharing technology. Who thinks that this has been a good thing?

Lowslung

Once again it's difficult to tell if you're being intentionally obtuse or if you really are just dense. You're correct about one thing: there are plenty of ancient feuds across Europe. You ask why Americans should care, as if you've never picked up a history book. We've been pulled into two world wars there. We would certainly be pulled into a third which in turn would likely be far more destructive than the first two. You really think we can be the ostrich and bury our head in the sand while the world burns around us? That strategy has failed spectacularly. Twice. Meanwhile, our strategy of engagement on the world stage, while not without its flaws, has led to decades of relative peace, stability, and prosperity. This isn't rocket science. Those of us who'd like to see this era of peace continue for future generations are dismayed by the attitudes displayed by by those who would willingly ignore the lessons that the generations who preceded us bled and paid dearly for.

Excargodog

We weren't "pulled" into two wars in Europe. We made a political and an emotional decision to go into WWI.

https://www.history.com/news/world-war-1-propaganda-woodrow-wilson-fake-news


That sparked sufficient isolationism in the US that we didn't go in to WWII when it started in Europe. WWII started in Europe in Sept. 1 1939. The US didn't enter the war until after Pearl Harbor and even then the US initially only declared war on Japan, becoming involved in the fighting in Europe only after Germany and Italy declared war on the US due to their Tripartite treaty with Japan. That was a full two years and four months after the start of the war in Europe and a year and a half after Dunkirk and the Nazi conquest (or declaration of neutrality) of Western Europe and much of North Africa. (See Vichy France and Quisling Norway)

While nobody really knows what may have been down the road not taken, it's quite possible that if Pearl Harbor had not happened, we would have never gotten involved in WWII at all.

The strategy has not "failed spectacularly" because the strategy has never been tried.

Hubcapped

The bot does it on purpose. It has no intention of rational back and forth. Thats why it deserves zero respect

Excargodog

From the dude that contributes nothing but ad hominem attacks to a thread which HE STARTED. lol.

Profane Kahuna

Your lies are weak.

You are trying to make it sound like NATO invaded Russia. Pure lies from you.

The truth is simple, Russia started this by invading Ukraine.

Now North Korea is helping the Russians.

This makes it clear to most people.... on one side is Ukraine and the US and its allies resisting the Russian invasion, and on the other are some of the world's worst dictatorships Russia and North Korea.

You seem to be afraid to answer the question.... whose side are you on?

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Excargodog

I told no lies.

No. I stated easily verifiable facts, that the Russians (well, Soviets back then) were given assurances by the Germans that there would be no eastward expansion of NATO to get their acquiesce in the reunification of Germany. That's an historical fact.


The truth is far more complex, going back centuries. There are many factors that caused this and many that could have prevented it. After the breakup of the Soviet Union Ukraine was the third greatest nuclear armed country in the world. They gave up those arms - the bombs and missiles returned to Russia and the bulk of the weapons grade Plutonium they had bought by us - on the assurrances of the UK, the US, and the Russians that all three would jointly assure their territorial integrity.
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-trilateral-process-the-united-states-ukraine-russia-and-nuclear-weapons/
Had they kept the nukes- even a dozen or two - it is difficult to believe Russia would have attacked them.
President Clinton made the commitment for the United States:
https://www.atomicarchive.com/resources/documents/deterrence/trilateral.html
Had President Obama (or the UK) honored the commitments Clinton and the Brits had signed onto when the Russians seized Crimea, its very possible the war would have been nipped in the bud. Instead Obama wussed out, slapped a few largely meaningless sanctions on the Russians, and encouraged the Brits to let the issue go:
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/06/23/7408222/

So no, the truth is not simple, the truth is far more complex than Putin bad. The truth is there are hundreds of years of complex history involved and more recently the Ukrainians were led down the primrose path by one US President and then abandoned by another. That is imminently regrettable but the history of Europe is replete with broken treaties, and this is scarcely unique.

Evidently. The North Koreans are saying that, the South Koreans are saying that, the Ukrainians are saying that, the Brits are saying that, and now we are saying that. That's a pretty large and diverse crowd for everybody to be wrong.

I beg to differ. I see no US troops taking part in this, no NATO troops taking part in this, and two NATO nations (Hungary and Slovenia) have indicated that they are not supporting Ukraine further.

https://www.politico.eu/article/nato-ukraine-slovakia-robert-fico-military-defense-alliance/

https://www.politico.eu/article/viktor-orban-volodymyr-zelenskyy-victory-plan-frightening-war-russia/

One other (Czechia) seems to be starting to waffle as well:

https://www.politico.eu/article/czech-prime-minister-andrej-babis-action-dissatisfied-citizens-far-right-donald-trump-viktor-orban-ukraine-migration/



Don't forget China and Iran.

I'm not in the least afraid to answer that. I am on the side of the United States.

But I think what you were really asking is who do I favor in the current hostilities between Russia and Ukraine. That's easy too, I favor Ukraine, partly because they got in this fix by relying on promises from the US State Department and various US political figures, but I certainly don't favor continuing this near stalemate that Ukraine is gradually losing. And I believe (and have repeatedly stated) that the only way to achieve Zelensky's stated goals of the return to the Ukraine of its internationally recognized border is either US boots on the ground or the use of nukes, and I'm afraid my sympathy for them does not extend that far. That being the case, the next option is a negotiated armistice that is likely to leave Russia in control of much of the area they have already taken. We don't live in an ideal world.

Profane Kahuna

You are full of it.

Next are you going to blame Jews for the holocaust, African Americans for the US Civil War, and Joseph Mary and Jesus for the crucifixion?

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Excargodog

I gave real facts with documentation. You may not LIKE those facts, h€LL I DON'T like many of those facts - especially that Obama reneged on our promises , but that doesn't stop them from being facts. Nor have you refuted a single one of those facts. If your mind is too simplistic to understand the implications of those facts - or that this situation is actually is not quite as "simple" as you believed, I'm not sure anything I can do or say can change that so I guess we'll just have to agree to differ. I seriously doubt if our differing will affect the outcome one iota. And I learned long ago that you can only lead a horse to water, actually drinking is up to the horse.

Profane Kahuna

The facts are simple, you have spent two and a half years over 420 pages of discussion spreading the Russian invader propaganda and blaming the victim.

Everyone can see you are on Russia's side, no matter how strongly you all of a sudden deny it.

Now that the evil dictatorship of North Korea has joined your side, I eagerly await your 10 posts per day telling us how glorious a workers paradise that North Korea is!

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