Search

Notices
Hangar Talk For non-aviation-related discussion and aviation threads that don't belong elsewhere

Ukraine conflict

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Today, 05:18 AM
  #4071  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 790
Default

Originally Posted by Sliceback
Here's where you get all tripped up over yourself - sending trainers to Ukraine isn't going to move the needle at the front. You said Ukraine would achieve it's original borders only with NATO troops or nukes.

Saying that NATO should keep the option open of sending troops to Ukraine isn't the same as there being an actual plan for that. For all we knew the statement meant trainers and advisors. Sending advisors is a 'no kidding' reality. But trainers aren't going to achieve the goal you're trying to create fear about - "US combat troops going to Ukraine." Any bets that will be the Russia, and House Republican whining, if the U.S. were to send 10 advisors? Combat brigades with supporting combined arms forces? That would be a whole different situation.
Some thoughts:

Russia was pegged to completely defeat Ukraine in a week or so. ..... They failed.
Zelens'kyi was supposed to run. .....He didn't.
Ukraine wasn't expected to fight. ......They did, and have.
Europe wasn't expected to step up with vast amounts of material and financial aid. .....They have.
Europe was supposed to freeze to death without Russian energy. ....They haven't.

Russia was thought to have a self sufficient arms industry. .....it functions, but not well.
Russia's economy was disfunctional prior to the invasion. With sanctions and the problems of a lopsided war economy, it is now even more so.

Since 1945 most colonial wars involving little guys/empires have resulted in the Empire suffering defeat. .....Russia is an Empire, Ukraine a 'little guy' fighting a colonial war for its freedom from Russia. Recent history favors Ukraine.
Ukraine wins by not losing.
Russia can't win, because they lack the means to permanently subjugate. .....Most importantly, depending on who you talk to, they lack the will for permanent subjugation.

As a landlocked Empire, Russia doesn't really have a historically defined border. Because of centuries of aggressive Russian expansion there are people who identify ethnically as Russian from the Baltic to the Pacific to the Caspian and Black Seas.
The first Russian leader to come up with some sort of solution to this puzzle will possibly be the one who will avoid another historical Russian collapse/revolution.
They have to figure out who they are and where they live. Then they can have some sort of rational peace with their neighbors.

Or we can just let the gangsters continue to sow chaos and watch the world spin out of control.
MaxQ is online now  
Old Today, 05:54 AM
  #4072  
Perennial Reserve
 
Excargodog's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,146
Default

Originally Posted by Sliceback
Meanwhile...back in the REAL geopolitical world....has ANY NATO country, or the U.S., suggested sending combat troops to Ukraine or using nukes?????????

"Supporting Ukraine....with conventional arms" to achieve thier political goals is still on the table AND a more likely outcome than Russia achieving it's goal.

The craziness is you think you're right...will being laughably wrong so far. How's Russia's plans working versus Ukraine's desire to not be under the Russian boot???
Originally Posted by Sliceback
Here's where you get all tripped up over yourself - sending trainers to Ukraine isn't going to move the needle at the front. You said Ukraine would achieve it's original borders only with NATO troops or nukes.

Saying that NATO should keep the option open of sending troops to Ukraine isn't the same as there being an actual plan for that. For all we knew the statement meant trainers and advisors.
We started in Vietnam with trainers and "advisors" too but IT'S a WAR ZONE and they become under fire as soon as they get there. And yeah, there have been plenty of suggestions of sending in NATO troops, because Ukraine has ZERO chance of getting back to their internationally recognized borders without either that or the US using nukes, with all the risks either option woukd entail.

But truthfully, I think the Ukrainians (along with the Brits) just screwed the pooch politically when they started interfering in US politics by publicly favoring one US political party over the other. That's sort of a guarantee the other side will pretty much oppose them in the future, and it was difficult enough to get the last tranche of appropriations through. Their overt partisanship pretty much guarantees it will be the last.
Excargodog is offline  
Old Today, 07:24 AM
  #4073  
Perennial Reserve
 
Excargodog's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,146
Default

Originally Posted by MaxQ
Some thoughts:

Russia was pegged to completely defeat Ukraine in a week or so. ..... They failed.
Zelens'kyi was supposed to run. .....He didn't.
Ukraine wasn't expected to fight. ......They did, and have.
Europe wasn't expected to step up with vast amounts of material and financial aid. .....They have.
Europe was supposed to freeze to death without Russian energy. ....They haven't.

Russia was thought to have a self sufficient arms industry. .....it functions, but not well.
Russia's economy was disfunctional prior to the invasion. With sanctions and the problems of a lopsided war economy, it is now even more so.

Since 1945 most colonial wars involving little guys/empires have resulted in the Empire suffering defeat. .....Russia is an Empire, Ukraine a 'little guy' fighting a colonial war for its freedom from Russia. Recent history favors Ukraine.
Ukraine wins by not losing.
Russia can't win, because they lack the means to permanently subjugate. .....Most importantly, depending on who you talk to, they lack the will for permanent subjugation.

As a landlocked Empire, Russia doesn't really have a historically defined border. Because of centuries of aggressive Russian expansion there are people who identify ethnically as Russian from the Baltic to the Pacific to the Caspian and Black Seas.
The first Russian leader to come up with some sort of solution to this puzzle will possibly be the one who will avoid another historical Russian collapse/revolution.
They have to figure out who they are and where they live. Then they can have some sort of rational peace with their neighbors.

Or we can just let the gangsters continue to sow chaos and watch the world spin out of control.
Many ways this can be viewed. For about the same cost as Afghanistan (~$100 billion a year counting AID and other funding) we have forced the Russians to use up all the old Soviet era conventional armaments they had stored and build new ones. But you are right about Russian borders and that generalizes to most of Europe. Their are tons of people displaced culturally and not just a Russians. There has been a 50+ year attempt to defeat nationalism (we are all just Europeans, free passage between countries, EU government, etc. But it appears that nationalism is making a comeback, as is the Cold War. Russia, China, and NK appear to be working more closely than they have in decades with Iran now added to the mix. Worse yet, they seem to be winning the global south. Of course the REAL winners are those populations whose birth rate exceeds their death rate because in the end the future belongs to those who actually show up. Ukraine has been a loser in that battle for a couple of generations and its population is destined to become smaller and older for at least another couple generations. Russia is only marginally better despite Putin's recent push for natalism. The big winner - I fear - may wind up being Iran.

Ukraine has pioneered a whole new dimension in conventional warfare with the liberal use of cheap and readily commercially available drones as well as somewhat more advanced and longer range drones, but this was more of a conceptual breakthrough than a technical one and these things seem near ideal for terrorists. I remember only a few years ago the FAA and DHS getting all excited about a YouTube video of some guy flying a drone and firing a pistol under it. That pales in comparison to what someone could do with the current FPV drones now being used by both sides in Ukraine. And now we have Iran building more advanced models:

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/ar...c-game-changer


We have indeed been born in interesting times.

Last edited by Excargodog; Today at 08:09 AM.
Excargodog is offline  
Old Today, 09:03 AM
  #4074  
Perennial Reserve
 
Excargodog's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,146
Default Interesting times indeed…

https://www.dw.com/en/us-eu-ukraine-...ine/a-70336251


POLITICSRUSSIAN FEDERATION

US, EU, Ukraine slam Russia's nuclear deterrence doctrine

32 minutes ago32 minutes agoThe US, EU and Kyiv all lambasted Russian President Vladimir Putin's "irresponsible" plans to amend the doctrine. The Kremlin meanwhile defended the move, describing it as a warning to the west.

Western allies of Ukraine have condemned Russia's plans to amend its nuclear deterrence doctrine, in a manner which might consider a "massive" aerial attack on Russia supported by a nuclear state as a "joint attack," even if the attacker is a non-nuclear state.

The update was proposed on Wednesday by President Vladimir Putin, who has the right to pass it. It is seen as a clear reference to Ukraine, as Kyiv presses its Western allies to grant it permission to use the long-range weapons they provide to strike deep within Russia.

Putin gave the example of Russia receiving "reliable information of a massive launch of air and space attack weapons and their crossing our state border," as a case where Russia might consider nuclear retaliation.

How did the West react?

US Secretary of State Antony Blinken criticized the proposed amendment on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly on Thursday.

"It's totally irresponsible, and I think many in the world have spoken clearly about that when he's been rattling the nuclear saber, including China in the past," Blinken said in an interview with MSNBC.

European Union foreign policy spokesman Peter Stano also rejected the plan as "reckless and irresponsible."

"Not for the first time, Putin is playing [a] gamble with his nuclear arsenal," Stano told reporters. "We of course strongly reject these threats."

Kyiv also strongly rejected Putin's proposal.

"Russia has nothing left but nuclear blackmail; it has no other instruments to intimidate the world," Andriy Yermak, head of the president's office, wrote on Telegram on Wednesday evening.

He said attempts to spread fear would not work.


Excargodog is offline  
Old Today, 09:29 AM
  #4075  
Perennial Reserve
 
Excargodog's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,146
Default Worth a read…

https://globalsecurityreview.com/the...clear-weapons/

An excerpt:

For the Biden administration and, soon, either Kamala Harris or Donald Trump, the real threat of nuclear weapons use in Ukraine or against NATO cannot be ignored. Contrary to the mantra that all nuclear weapons are strategic and there is no such thing as a winnable nuclear war, the Russians and Chinese see things differently.

Low-yield battlefield nuclear weapons do not create a nuclear wasteland. In fact, an air burst at the right height of burst produces no fall-out at all—only heat, a blast wave, and prompt radiation that dissipate in hundreds or a few thousand yards.

With numerous low-yield nuclear options available to Russia, there is a very real need for the United States military to retrain for operating in a post–nuclear detonation environment. In a recent public discussion, the heads of the Central Intelligence Agency and the United Kingdom’s MI6 revealed that Putin came very close to using a nuclear weapon in Ukraine during the fall of 2022. Such a scenario can easily arise again.

American mirror imaging of Russian perspectives on nuclear use, to suggest they think like Americans and would therefore never violate the “nuclear taboo”, is a recipe for getting caught unprepared. While Russians do see nuclear weapons as different than conventional weapons, they do understand weapons effects and are not given to the hyperbole that is widespread in the United States.

The fact that American integrated deterrence was a disastrous failure in its attempt to forestall a Russian invasion of Ukraine and is failing to restore deterrence with Russia vis-à-vis Ukraine means that the Russians now understand that American sanctions and other threats are largely harmless. Since the implementation of sanctions following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, Putin found alternative outlets for Russian exports (petroleum) and found alternate sources of imports—including military supplies.

Rather than breaking Russia, American action drove China, Iran, North Korea, and Russia together. This leaves Putin less reluctant to use nuclear weapons in Ukraine than he perhaps was before.

Of course, neither China nor Russia is seeking to start a nuclear conflict that sees the exchange of strategic nuclear weapons. That would be devastating for everyone. But the use of a small number of low-yield battlefield nuclear weapons is a different story.

Even a reluctant Biden administration, now that it is coming to an end, tossed the disarmament community’s ostrich strategy into the dustheap of history. It is now a matter of whether the United States has the will to embark on the expansive modernization effort required to fill the gap in battlefield nuclear weapons.
Author's bio:

​​​​​​​
Adam Lowther, PhD is the Vice President of Research at the National Institute for Deterrence Studies. He has deep expertise in nuclear deterrence and the nuclear programs of Russia and China.

He previously served as the Director of Strategic Deterrence Programs at the National Strategic Research Institute (NSRI)—serving US Strategic Command. Prior to joining NSRI, Dr. Lowther served as the director of the department of multi-domain operations (MDO) at the Army Management Staff College (AMSC) where he led efforts to develop MDO education programs in collaboration with an interdisciplinary faculty of engineers and scientists. Prior to this assignment, Dr. Lowther was a Professor of Political Science at the Army’s School of Advanced Military Studies (SAMS) and taught 21st-century conflict to lieutenant colonels and colonels.

Previously, he served as the founding director of the School of Advanced Nuclear Deterrence Studies (SANDS), Kirtland AFB. Dr. Lowther led the school’s academic, professional development, and research efforts.

He also served as the director of the Center for Academic and Professional Journals at the Air Force Research Institute (AFRI), Maxwell AFB, where he oversaw publication of the Air Force’s professional journals: Strategic Studies Quarterly and Air and Space Power Journal (English, Spanish, Chinese, French). Prior to assuming this position, Dr. Lowther was a research professor at AFRI where he led and participated in studies directed by the Chief of Staff of the Air Force.

He is the author or editor of many books and academic journal articles. Dr. Lowther has published in outlets like the New York Times, Boston Globe, Joint Force Quarterly, Strategic Studies Quarterly, and a variety of other places.

Early in his career, Petty Officer Lowther served in the US Navy aboard the USS RAMAGE (DDG-61), at CINCUSNAVEUR–London, and with the Seabees (NMCB 17).


​​​​​​​
Excargodog is offline  
Old Today, 01:54 PM
  #4076  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 790
Default

Originally Posted by Excargodog
Many ways this can be viewed. For about the same cost as Afghanistan (~$100 billion a year counting AID and other funding) we have forced the Russians to use up all the old Soviet era conventional armaments they had stored and build new ones. But you are right about Russian borders and that generalizes to most of Europe. Their are tons of people displaced culturally and not just a Russians. There has been a 50+ year attempt to defeat nationalism (we are all just Europeans, free passage between countries, EU government, etc. But it appears that nationalism is making a comeback, as is the Cold War. Russia, China, and NK appear to be working more closely than they have in decades with Iran now added to the mix. Worse yet, they seem to be winning the global south. Of course the REAL winners are those populations whose birth rate exceeds their death rate because in the end the future belongs to those who actually show up. Ukraine has been a loser in that battle for a couple of generations and its population is destined to become smaller and older for at least another couple generations. Russia is only marginally better despite Putin's recent push for natalism. The big winner - I fear - may wind up being Iran.

Ukraine has pioneered a whole new dimension in conventional warfare with the liberal use of cheap and readily commercially available drones as well as somewhat more advanced and longer range drones, but this was more of a conceptual breakthrough than a technical one and these things seem near ideal for terrorists. I remember only a few years ago the FAA and DHS getting all excited about a YouTube video of some guy flying a drone and firing a pistol under it. That pales in comparison to what someone could do with the current FPV drones now being used by both sides in Ukraine. And now we have Iran building more advanced models:

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/ar...c-game-changer


We have indeed been born in interesting times.
I am curious, though it is none of my business.

Are you retired, or do you still work as a full time employee?
MaxQ is online now  
Old Today, 02:14 PM
  #4077  
Perennial Reserve
 
Excargodog's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,146
Default

Originally Posted by MaxQ
I am curious, though it is none of my business.

Are you retired, or do you still work as a full time employee?
See PM.

(filler)
Excargodog is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Boeing Aviator
United
18
03-22-2022 11:04 AM
decrabbitz
FedEx
8
09-18-2021 10:22 PM
HerkDriver
Cargo
5
09-18-2007 01:56 PM
DiamondZ
Cargo
16
03-22-2007 10:38 AM
RockBottom
Hangar Talk
0
08-22-2006 07:35 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



Your Privacy Choices