Ukraine conflict
#391
On Friday, the Department of Defense announcedyet another aid package for Ukraine. The package is valued at $400 million and includes additional High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS), 155mm and 105mm artillery rounds, armored vehicle launched bridges, ammunition, as well as other equipment.
The DoD release explains that the Biden administration is dispensing this latest round of aid using the Presidential Drawdown Authority, which, according to the DoD, is the thirty-third time the administration has pulled from DoD inventories since August of 2021.
The DoD release explains that the Biden administration is dispensing this latest round of aid using the Presidential Drawdown Authority, which, according to the DoD, is the thirty-third time the administration has pulled from DoD inventories since August of 2021.
Here is a list of everything we’ve given Ukraine so far:
https://media.defense.gov/2023/Mar/0...EET-PDA-33.PDF
Let’s take just one item - your basic 155mm artillery shell. So far we’ve given the Ukraine a million of them, Let’s look at how difficult it will be to step up production:
As it stands now, the U.S. Army produces about 14,000 155mm shells per month. Extrapolate that to a year, and that’s just 168,000 shells—less than a fifth of the number of 155mm shells the U.S. has given Ukraine in the past year. If all Ukrainian aid ended tomorrow, it would take the U.S. just under six years to produce enough 155mm shells to bring U.S. stockpiles back to pre-war levels.
This explains why the U.S. is looking to boost the production rate of these shells to 20,000 shells per month sometime this spring; but even then, it would take just over 4 years to replenish 155mm shell stockpiles. This is why the U.S. wants to increase that production more than fourfold, from 20,000 to 90,000 shells per month, by 2025. Congress has already provided the factories that produce 155mm shells $420 million, but the United States is projected to spend nearly $2 billion on boosting the production of 155mm shells this year alone. Even at that new production rate, it would still take eleven months and change to bring 155mm shell stockpiles back to pre-war levels, assuming the U.S. stopped giving Ukraine 155mm shells entirely.
And it still remains to be seen if the investment into the production of 155mm shells will result in the massive production increase the U.S. military expects. Time magazine recently published an article that gave readers an inside look of the Scranton factory, owned by the U.S. Army and run by General Dynamics, tasked with making 155mm artillery shells. The factory produces just over 11,000 155mm shells per month. Its 300 employees are already worked hard—the factory runs 24 hours a day, five days a week, and has an additional weekend shift. The men work around heavy machinery and three furnaces that burn at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit to refine, process, and form the steel.
Even though the 155mm shells are less technologically advanced than other military aid the U.S. has given to Ukraine, making the U.S. military’s production goals come to fruition is a daunting task. For the 155mm shells, at least there are open factory lines and plenty of infrastructure for the U.S. military industrial base to start from. The same can’t be said about the gun that fires these shells. The M-777 Howitzer production line is closed, and CSIS claims that stockpiles of the weapon were already limited back in September when the U.S. had given 126 M-777s to Ukraine. That number has since risen to 160. In total, CSIS estimates that the U.S. military has only about 1,000 M-777 systems.
This explains why the U.S. is looking to boost the production rate of these shells to 20,000 shells per month sometime this spring; but even then, it would take just over 4 years to replenish 155mm shell stockpiles. This is why the U.S. wants to increase that production more than fourfold, from 20,000 to 90,000 shells per month, by 2025. Congress has already provided the factories that produce 155mm shells $420 million, but the United States is projected to spend nearly $2 billion on boosting the production of 155mm shells this year alone. Even at that new production rate, it would still take eleven months and change to bring 155mm shell stockpiles back to pre-war levels, assuming the U.S. stopped giving Ukraine 155mm shells entirely.
And it still remains to be seen if the investment into the production of 155mm shells will result in the massive production increase the U.S. military expects. Time magazine recently published an article that gave readers an inside look of the Scranton factory, owned by the U.S. Army and run by General Dynamics, tasked with making 155mm artillery shells. The factory produces just over 11,000 155mm shells per month. Its 300 employees are already worked hard—the factory runs 24 hours a day, five days a week, and has an additional weekend shift. The men work around heavy machinery and three furnaces that burn at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit to refine, process, and form the steel.
Even though the 155mm shells are less technologically advanced than other military aid the U.S. has given to Ukraine, making the U.S. military’s production goals come to fruition is a daunting task. For the 155mm shells, at least there are open factory lines and plenty of infrastructure for the U.S. military industrial base to start from. The same can’t be said about the gun that fires these shells. The M-777 Howitzer production line is closed, and CSIS claims that stockpiles of the weapon were already limited back in September when the U.S. had given 126 M-777s to Ukraine. That number has since risen to 160. In total, CSIS estimates that the U.S. military has only about 1,000 M-777 systems.
The U.S. military has provided the Ukrainians with more than 8,500 Javelins, a portable, shoulder-fired anti-tank missile system, but current production levels, split between Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, are only 400 Javelins per month. It’s a marked increase of previous production levels, which CSIS estimated sat at around 1,000 Javelins per year. Nevertheless, the U.S. has voluntarily given about a third of its Javelin stockpile over to the Ukrainians.
The U.S. has handed Ukraine about a third of its Stinger stockpile as well, amounting to over 1,600 of the shoulder-fired anti-aircraft system. But the production line for Stinger missiles is in worse shape than that of the Javelin, kept open only thanks to small amounts of foreign sales, according to CSIS.
Raytheon Technologies chief executive Greg Hayes previously brought up concerns about dwindling Javelin stockpiles in December 2022. “In the first 10 months of the war, we’ve essentially used up 13 years of Stinger production, and five years worth of Javelin production,” Hayes reportedly said. “So the question is, how are we going to resupply, restock the inventories?”
The U.S. has handed Ukraine about a third of its Stinger stockpile as well, amounting to over 1,600 of the shoulder-fired anti-aircraft system. But the production line for Stinger missiles is in worse shape than that of the Javelin, kept open only thanks to small amounts of foreign sales, according to CSIS.
Raytheon Technologies chief executive Greg Hayes previously brought up concerns about dwindling Javelin stockpiles in December 2022. “In the first 10 months of the war, we’ve essentially used up 13 years of Stinger production, and five years worth of Javelin production,” Hayes reportedly said. “So the question is, how are we going to resupply, restock the inventories?”
#392
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2022
Posts: 1,466
If Ukraine has the will to fight what is not sustainable?
#393
I’m not sure ANYONE can give you more than a WAG, and that with serious qualifiers. It would help if you could tell us how much more of our military stockpiles are going to be sent to the Ukraine. Currently we are shipping out far more than we are making. From a Mar 7 article:
It sort of goes without saying that we can’t “get caught up” until what we are making exceeds what we are giving away, which certainly hasn’t happened yet. Can you predict if there will be a thirty-fourth drawdown? And how much? Or of what? Well neither can I.
Here is a list of everything we’ve given Ukraine so far:
https://media.defense.gov/2023/Mar/0...EET-PDA-33.PDF
Let’s take just one item - your basic 155mm artillery shell. So far we’ve given the Ukraine a million of them, Let’s look at how difficult it will be to step up production:
Other weapon systems are in even worse shape:
So if the CEO of the company which produces these weapons doesn’t know and is unable to give an estimate, perhaps you’ll excuse me for not being able to do that either.
It sort of goes without saying that we can’t “get caught up” until what we are making exceeds what we are giving away, which certainly hasn’t happened yet. Can you predict if there will be a thirty-fourth drawdown? And how much? Or of what? Well neither can I.
Here is a list of everything we’ve given Ukraine so far:
https://media.defense.gov/2023/Mar/0...EET-PDA-33.PDF
Let’s take just one item - your basic 155mm artillery shell. So far we’ve given the Ukraine a million of them, Let’s look at how difficult it will be to step up production:
Other weapon systems are in even worse shape:
So if the CEO of the company which produces these weapons doesn’t know and is unable to give an estimate, perhaps you’ll excuse me for not being able to do that either.
I'm sure the CEO can come up with a plan... for the right price.
#394
You can reasonably debate and, make a reasonable calculus, as to what has a larger deterrent effect on the PRC *in the near term* ... us having a good supply of various land warfare munitions, or the west holding the line against RU.
Also PRC simply isn't ready for Taiwan. They have limited numbers of amphibs, which are large, slow and utterly essential to any practical scheme to seize the island. They also know there's one munition which we are NOT expending in UR: MK48 ADCAP/CBASS. That's real close to the center of gravity IMO.
Also PRC simply isn't ready for Taiwan. They have limited numbers of amphibs, which are large, slow and utterly essential to any practical scheme to seize the island. They also know there's one munition which we are NOT expending in UR: MK48 ADCAP/CBASS. That's real close to the center of gravity IMO.
#395
In my experience, Defense industrial base CEOs can ALWAYS come up with a plan, but rarely can they execute it on time and on budget. (The KC-46 comes to mind. Even though that was a firm fixed price contract annd Boeing is footing the overruns, we are still flying KC-135s that should have long since been retired. And that was even in “normal” times - times when we had no supply chain or “I’d rather work from home” problems. Recruiting problems either, for that matter, but that’s a different story. Sometimes the engineering is pretty pi$$-poor too. Not to mention just the wrong concept:
https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-22-105387
https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-22-105387
#396
You can reasonably debate and, make a reasonable calculus, as to what has a larger deterrent effect on the PRC *in the near term* ... us having a good supply of various land warfare munitions, or the west holding the line against RU.
Also PRC simply isn't ready for Taiwan. They have limited numbers of amphibs, which are large, slow and utterly essential to any practical scheme to seize the island. They also know there's one munition which we are NOT expending in UR: MK48 ADCAP/CBASS. That's real close to the center of gravity IMO.
Also PRC simply isn't ready for Taiwan. They have limited numbers of amphibs, which are large, slow and utterly essential to any practical scheme to seize the island. They also know there's one munition which we are NOT expending in UR: MK48 ADCAP/CBASS. That's real close to the center of gravity IMO.
That might be real important because there is currently an ongoing massive buildup in the PRC industrial base:
https://news.usni.org/2020/10/12/chi...pyard-capacity
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...-new-shipyard/
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...-new-shipyard/
Besides the fact that we have to police the world while Taiwan is in their back yard.
#397
You say even the CEOs of defense contractors could not come up with a plan. I am reminded of WW Two. The federal government wanted to tell industry what to do AND how to do it, to ramp up production. The CEOs of the car companies wisely said tell them what the need was, and they will develop a plan to achieve it. They will figure it out. As a result, they produced record numbers of planes, tanks, trucks, and jeeps.
No one forced my mother to go to work building B-25s. Pay and job opportunities got her to quit her job at the bank. She was paid twice what she was making at the bank. Pay creates job applicants.
While not perfect, the auto CEOs developed plans, more than just WAGs, to meet the needs and they achieved them. No different today, compared to back then.
Production and logistics are what allows success in war time. In Europe, Hitler was amazed the Red Ball Express kept supplies coming to the front. Those logistics where supplied by the ramped up production.
No one forced my mother to go to work building B-25s. Pay and job opportunities got her to quit her job at the bank. She was paid twice what she was making at the bank. Pay creates job applicants.
While not perfect, the auto CEOs developed plans, more than just WAGs, to meet the needs and they achieved them. No different today, compared to back then.
Production and logistics are what allows success in war time. In Europe, Hitler was amazed the Red Ball Express kept supplies coming to the front. Those logistics where supplied by the ramped up production.
#398
You say even the CEOs of defense contractors could not come up with a plan. I am reminded of WW Two. The federal government wanted to tell industry what to do AND how to do it, to ramp up production. The CEOs of the car companies wisely said tell them what the need was, and they will develop a plan to achieve it. They will figure it out. As a result, they produced record numbers of planes, tanks, trucks, and jeeps.
No one forced my mother to go to work building B-25s. Pay and job opportunities got her to quit her job at the bank. She was paid twice what she was making at the bank. Pay creates job applicants.
While not perfect, the auto CEOs developed plans, more than just WAGs, to meet the needs and they achieved them. No different today, compared to back then.
Production and logistics are what allows success in war time. In Europe, Hitler was amazed the Red Ball Express kept supplies coming to the front. Those logistics where supplied by the ramped up production.
No one forced my mother to go to work building B-25s. Pay and job opportunities got her to quit her job at the bank. She was paid twice what she was making at the bank. Pay creates job applicants.
While not perfect, the auto CEOs developed plans, more than just WAGs, to meet the needs and they achieved them. No different today, compared to back then.
Production and logistics are what allows success in war time. In Europe, Hitler was amazed the Red Ball Express kept supplies coming to the front. Those logistics where supplied by the ramped up production.
This is more the face of Detroit today:
https://jalopnik.com/packard-auto-plant-is-the-largest-abandoned-factory-in-1850035597
And, as Mike Rowe has been preaching for a decade or more, we lack the sorts of skilled workers we once had.
https://schooltube.com/v/ERPKYL
#399
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2022
Posts: 1,466
What are the political ramifications of feeding Ukraine to the bear in front of the world stage? How much market influence, geopolitical influence etc would that cost?
Failing to understand this very basic concept of vested interests whilst waxing on about literally every right wing tucker propaganda point is telling.
Unless you think ww3 is happening in the next 2 years US stockpiles are irrelevant.
Failing to understand this very basic concept of vested interests whilst waxing on about literally every right wing tucker propaganda point is telling.
Unless you think ww3 is happening in the next 2 years US stockpiles are irrelevant.
Last edited by Hubcapped; 03-14-2023 at 12:30 PM.
#400
What are the political ramifications of feeding Ukraine to the bear in front of the world stage? How much market influence, geopolitical influence etc would that cost?
Failing to understand this very basic concept of vested interests whilst waxing on about literally every right wing tucker propaganda point is telling.
Unless you think ww3 is happening in the next 2 years US stockpiles are irrelevant.
Failing to understand this very basic concept of vested interests whilst waxing on about literally every right wing tucker propaganda point is telling.
Unless you think ww3 is happening in the next 2 years US stockpiles are irrelevant.
And you appear to have a serious Tucker Carlson fetish.
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