Hubcapped

it’s funny how people that lied to prove a point think they deserve respect. Keep harvesting those potatoes bot. Your complete obsession doesn’t come across as mentally unstable at all.

METO Guido

To truly understand a conflict, no better start than getting yourself out of it. Does Ukraine’s flag continue to wave over Kiev? Yes. Going to stay that way too. Whatever it takes. Boots as necessary. That means casualties. Lowslung is correct. They get stopped here. No other way.

Excargodog

Oh, I think he HAS paid a high price for this. It was not the cakewalk that most of the world had predicted. And I think that alone makes continuing to support an unreachable goal a bad idea. If we are serious about supporting the goal of the Ukrainians - restoration of their internationally recognized borders in the Donbas and Crimea then we rally do need US boots on the ground (with perhaps the assistance of some of our NATO allies special ops people because the rest of their troops were under equipped even before they gave much of what little equipment and ammo they had to Ukraine) or use tactical nukes with all the risks inherent in either of those two options.

As for supporting Ukraine "as long as it takes"...

The problem is that you aren't going to make a good landing from a bad approach.

NATO frankly WAS NOT prepared for this in great part because the major non-US economies in NATO, Germany, Canada, the UK, France, the Netherlands, Italy, Spain, took thirty years of "peace dividends." And the US also took some peace dividends and has other treaty obligations and traditional understandings as well (Israel, ROK, Taiwan, Philippines, freedom of seas stuff like keeping traffic flowing through the Suez (which really ought to be an EU responsibility but..., etc. etc).

But because the approach was bad the landing ain't gonna be to recover all that territory without us (that is USA) going damn near one on one against the Russkies. That's just a fact. Ukraine was in the midst of a near demographic doom loop before this happened and fighting this war has made that immeasurably worse. Their infrastructure has been pounded and their economy is in ruins. There is no reason to believe any of that will be better as this goes on. And no reason to believe that their occupying 0.008% is going to change that and considerable to suggest it was a mistake

They have - as Rickair said months ago, made the point to the Russians that there was going to be a far greater cost to this type of "special operation" than it was worth, but right now now both sides are caught in the "sunk cost fallacy"

Yeah,it sucks, but those are the facts. Ukraine is getting weaker rather than stronger and another dozen F-16s (which took a year to get there) or more of the Leopard A1s salvaged from the museums and recycling plants of Europe (The majority of which still aren't there) are going to change that.

They were a poor country to begin with and they are poorer now. They were an aging population with a dearth of young people before this and they are older with fewer young people now. And many of their young people are refugees in the EU and other nations like Canada and after two years in exile many will never come back. A recent petition drive is trying to get them to stop conscripting men over 50 because there are enough elderly widows. They've fought bravely, heroically even, but their erstwhile EU brethren (and yes, us too to a lesser extent) let them down.by not doing something back when the takeover of Crimea was happening as we promised we would do when we would talked them into getting rid of their nukes in the Budapest agreement.
https://www.hks.harvard.edu/publications/budapest-memorandum-25-between-past-and-
future

But they've suffered enough. Eventually they WILL be ground down below viability as a nation even if this actually were just a war of attrition rather than a slow motion defeat for them. Time to make the best deal they can make which won't happen if we continue to endorse this vacuous "whatever it takes" policy with no apparent achievable goals. That's just cruel. Time to either negotiate for an end to this or go with one of the two options and politically that's not going to happen before the US election and is exceedingly unlikely to happen even after the election.

My opinion. Yours may differ.

Excargodog

And your complete inability to address THE TOPIC in a thread that YOU STARTED pretty much shows your interest is solely in being obnoxious. Speaks to your own mental instability I suppose...

Lowslung

Let's all be real here. Ukraine is not going to see its borders fully restored. At the very least, Russia will retain the Crimea and its Black Sea naval base at Sevastopol. It'll likely hold on to much of the Russian leaning territories in eastern Ukraine as well. The US knows this, Russia knows this, NATO knows this, and despite their publicly stated position, Ukraine knows this. At this point, both sides are simply trying to better their positions for the inevitable peace negotiations to come. This is 100% what Ukraine's Russian incursion is all about. Give me back some of my land & I'll give back some of yours. Both sides are just trying to bleed the other guy enough to willingly come to the peace table. Ukraine has the advantage of fighting for its own land. Russia, while enjoying a numerical advantage, has to try and convince its people, businesses, and oligarchs that its "special military operation" is worth the squeeze. We've seen the little guy prevail in this scenario more than a few times over the last century. Ukraine will have the backing of the international community and the United States when it comes time to rebuild. Russia will rebuild by ordering on Temu. My money says this hurts Russia more and longer than it does Ukraine.

METO Guido

Sure can. Come around and do it again. Maybe get on profile a little sooner. The strength of faith. Show me someone unmoved by Slava ukraini resolve, we’re looking at a liar.

Hubcapped

it’s funny how people that lied to prove a point think they deserve respect. Keep harvesting those potatoes bot. Your complete obsession doesn’t come across as mentally unstable at all.

METO Guido

Nurse, Midazolam, 5mg pls. Excargo bot isn’t here Major. Just a dream. That’s the ticket, breathe deep..exhale slowly. When you wake up, all gone.

Hubcapped

im chill ghandi. Just poking the liar is all. One day of work left. Couple days and ill be back to laugh at the obsessed bot again

METO Guido

Close, Lama. Long hitters the lamas. Get some wt. into the lead heel, hold the wrist angle into your follow through. Get ball turf contact every time