Search

Notices
Hangar Talk For non-aviation-related discussion and aviation threads that don't belong elsewhere

Ukraine conflict

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 08-25-2024, 10:40 AM
  #3821  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,824
Default

Originally Posted by Excargodog
Quote from an RUSI analyst.



Or as Sun Tzu put it:



or, for that matter:
Even for an army truly unconcerned with losing boys, they’ll be forced to conscript from ever higher & lower economic/social tiers. If you’re of the Putin elite, you’ve significant global assets to protect. Who wouldn’t care about keeping that? Who wouldn’t try to snatch it from you? This ain’t your mama’s incursion gone wrong. They’ll catch hell for this. More fall of Tsar Nicholas/Reza Shah/Saddam than Stalin or Khrushchev imo. Going to get cold before too long. We’ll see.
METO Guido is offline  
Old 08-25-2024, 11:44 AM
  #3822  
Gets Weekends Off
 
CLazarus's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Position: 777FO
Posts: 769
Default

Originally Posted by Excargodog
Quote from an RUSI analyst.
The longer this goes on the more it will be in Russia's advantage, and they don't care about losing soldiers, whereas the Ukrainians do.
"they don't Russian government doesn't care about losing soldiers". Fixed it for you. One thing I cannot fault the Russian people on is that they absolutely LOVE their kids. As it becomes clear to more and more that their lives are being thrown away in droves for a massive land theft, discontent will rise. Maybe not enough to make a difference before Ukraine is forced to make peace or Putin croaks, but enough that it seems certain to boil over at some point. Mothers and wives with nothing left to lose are dangerous to dictators.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/23/o...ine-kursk.html
Putin is Getting Rattled
By Serge Schmemann

"Just as important, Ukraine’s move into Kursk highlights the inherent contradiction in Mr. Putin’s propaganda, which portrays the conflict as a proxy war against Western powers trying to deny Russia its destiny, and one in which a calm, united and prosperous Russia is certain to prevail. But that illusion falls apart once Ukrainian forces have succeeded in slicing into Russia and forcing tens of thousands of Russians to flee their homes."

"Mr. Putin has so far held firm to the line “We have everything under control.” He has not bothered to visit Kursk, and he has not delivered a rousing speech calling for a grand defense of the motherland. The state-controlled media has focused on showing the government ensuring that evacuees are safe and cared for and that the nation was rallying with an outpouring of humanitarian aid. The latest report from Russia’s emergencies ministry on Tuesday said more than 122,000 civilians had been relocated, including more than 500 in the previous 24 hours, many to shelters across Russia."
CLazarus is offline  
Old 08-25-2024, 04:07 PM
  #3823  
Perennial Reserve
 
Excargodog's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,107
Default

Originally Posted by CLazarus
"they don't Russian government doesn't care about losing soldiers". Fixed it for you. One thing I cannot fault the Russian people on is that they absolutely LOVE their kids. As it becomes clear to more and more that their lives are being thrown away in droves for a massive land theft, discontent will rise. Maybe not enough to make a difference before Ukraine is forced to make peace or Putin croaks, but enough that it seems certain to boil over at some point. Mothers and wives with nothing left to lose are dangerous to dictators.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/23/o...ine-kursk.html
Putin is Getting Rattled
By Serge Schmemann

"Just as important, Ukraine’s move into Kursk highlights the inherent contradiction in Mr. Putin’s propaganda, which portrays the conflict as a proxy war against Western powers trying to deny Russia its destiny, and one in which a calm, united and prosperous Russia is certain to prevail. But that illusion falls apart once Ukrainian forces have succeeded in slicing into Russia and forcing tens of thousands of Russians to flee their homes."

"Mr. Putin has so far held firm to the line “We have everything under control.” He has not bothered to visit Kursk, and he has not delivered a rousing speech calling for a grand defense of the motherland. The state-controlled media has focused on showing the government ensuring that evacuees are safe and cared for and that the nation was rallying with an outpouring of humanitarian aid. The latest report from Russia’s emergencies ministry on Tuesday said more than 122,000 civilians had been relocated, including more than 500 in the previous 24 hours, many to shelters across Russia."
Nobody is saying that war is GOOD for either side. But there are two sides involved. One has about 122 x 10^3/144 x 10^6 = 0.08% of their population internally displaced. The other has ~7 x 10^6 of ~37 x 10^6 = 19% of their population living as refugees in the EU and another 4 x 10^6 of ~37 x 10^6 = 11% of their population internally displaced.

Yep, 122,000 people is a big number but relative to what Ukraine is currently sustaining it's a friggin flea bite. GDP of Ukraine this year is estimated by the world bank to come in around $186 Billion. For Russia they are estimating a GDP of $2.02 Trillion. Population, industrial base, geographic size, and resource base all really do matter.
Excargodog is offline  
Old 08-25-2024, 06:22 PM
  #3824  
Gets Weekends Off
 
CLazarus's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Position: 777FO
Posts: 769
Default

Originally Posted by Excargodog
Nobody is saying that war is GOOD for either side. But there are two sides involved. One has about 122 x 10^3/144 x 10^6 = 0.08% of their population internally displaced. The other has ~7 x 10^6 of ~37 x 10^6 = 19% of their population living as refugees in the EU and another 4 x 10^6 of ~37 x 10^6 = 11% of their population internally displaced.
I'd be interested to know how the proportions of the Ukraine war compare to the Arab v. Israeli conflicts up through the Yom Kippur War. Not a perfect match by any means, and the periods of open conflict were much shorter. The Russo Japanese war also comes to mind (not sure of the population numbers at the time). Point for the time being is that numbers and territory don't automatically lead to victory. Will to fight is arguably as important a factor as any.
CLazarus is offline  
Old 08-25-2024, 06:46 PM
  #3825  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,824
Default

Pivotal six months ahead. They will split. Inside out. Weakest link, EU fecklessness. As much I hate to admit it.
METO Guido is offline  
Old 08-25-2024, 08:32 PM
  #3826  
Perennial Reserve
 
Excargodog's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,107
Default

Originally Posted by CLazarus
I'd be interested to know how the proportions of the Ukraine war compare to the Arab v. Israeli conflicts up through the Yom Kippur War. Not a perfect match by any means, and the periods of open conflict were much shorter. The Russo Japanese war also comes to mind (not sure of the population numbers at the time). Point for the time being is that numbers and territory don't automatically lead to victory. Will to fight is arguably as important a factor as any.
ALWAYS is a hard word to live up to. There are reasons, however, for weight classes in boxing and wrestling. And then there is the old joke about never getting in a knife fight with a midget in a telephone booth...back when there were telephone booths that is.
Excargodog is offline  
Old 08-25-2024, 08:35 PM
  #3827  
Perennial Reserve
 
Excargodog's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,107
Default From EU today…




https://eutoday.net/belarusian-troop...ns-in-ukraine/


Ukrainian officials have raised alarms about a significant buildup of Belarusian military forces near the Belarus-Ukraine border, according to reports from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine.

Citing intelligence data, the Ukrainian government noted the presence of Special Operations Forces from Belarus, alongside a notable amount of engineering equipment and air defence systems. The deployment is being carried out under the guise of military exercises, raising suspicions of more hostile intentions.

The situation is further complicated by the presence of former mercenaries from the Wagner Group, a notorious private military company previously led by Yevgeny Prigozhin. After Prigozhin’s death, many of the mercenaries associated with Wagner were reportedly transferred to Belarus under agreements brokered by Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko.

This troop build-up comes amid heightened tensions between Ukraine and Belarus. Ukrainian officials have warned that any further hostile actions by the Lukashenko regime would justify a Ukrainian response in self-defence, particularly if Belarusian forces were to cross into Ukrainian territory.

Strategic Distracting Tactic

Ukrainian analysts suggest that the Belarusian manoeuvres may be part of a broader strategy orchestrated by Moscow. The purpose is likely to distract Ukrainian forces from critical battlefronts, particularly in the Donetsk region.

Russia’s military objectives include pushing Ukrainian troops out of the contested Kursk region by early October, as per orders reportedly issued by President Vladimir Putin. This would require not only substantial Russian military efforts but also a diversion of Ukrainian forces away from that region. By creating the appearance of a serious threat from the north, Belarus aims to force Ukraine to redeploy its military reserves.

Lukashenko’s role appears to be key in this diversion strategy. According to Ukrainian officials, the Belarusian president is under significant pressure from Moscow to play his part in the war, despite his public rhetoric advocating peace talks with Ukraine. This peace rhetoric, which includes recent statements by Lukashenko claiming that Ukraine has already been “denazified” and that there is no longer a reason to fight, is seen by Ukrainian officials as a smokescreen for more aggressive intentions. These intentions, they argue, are not solely Lukashenko’s but are dictated by Putin, who aims to use Belarus as a platform for his own strategic goals.
Excargodog is offline  
Old 08-26-2024, 07:38 AM
  #3828  
Gets Weekends Off
 
CLazarus's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Position: 777FO
Posts: 769
Default

Originally Posted by Excargodog
Lukashenko’s role appears to be key in this diversion strategy. According to Ukrainian officials, the Belarusian president is under significant pressure from Moscow to play his part in the war, despite his public rhetoric advocating peace talks with Ukraine. This peace rhetoric, which includes recent statements by Lukashenko claiming that Ukraine has already been “denazified” and that there is no longer a reason to fight, is seen by Ukrainian officials as a smokescreen for more aggressive intentions. These intentions, they argue, are not solely Lukashenko’s but are dictated by Putin, who aims to use Belarus as a platform for his own strategic goals.


Before the invasion, I thought the smart move for Putin would have been to just shove Lukashenko aside completely and unite the two countries rather than pick a fight in Ukraine he might regret. Putin might still be able to subjugate Belarus, but with what army? What Putin has left doesn't seem capable of doing much of anything outside of where it is already committed. Meanwhile, if Lukashenko actually joins Putin in the aggression against Ukraine... I think his own people might well rise up. His hold on power seemed very tenuous at the last election, and I don't think it would take much for people there to revolt. If a few Belarusian military units said Nyet to following orders, it might snowball very quickly. Not predicting it will happen... but it's pretty conceivable.

And to preempt the usual reminders of Russia's manpower/size, I think if Ukraine can hang on into early spring Russia will be unable to mount any sort of offensive next summer. Russia will be severely hamstrung in its ability to fire artillery (lack of barrels), manuever (lack of armored vehicles), or lob missiles (they will probably run out of North Korean ones and I doubt China will offer any). Also, as numbers of F-16s grow the Ukrainian Air Force will start to significantly challenge Russian airpower (which is steadily degrading). I think Russian frontline troops are going to start being on the receiving end of 2,000lb weapons before long. I think next summer is when peace talks will get real.
CLazarus is offline  
Old 08-26-2024, 09:03 AM
  #3829  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 788
Default

Originally Posted by CLazarus
Before the invasion, I thought the smart move for Putin would have been to just shove Lukashenko aside completely and unite the two countries rather than pick a fight in Ukraine he might regret. Putin might still be able to subjugate Belarus, but with what army? What Putin has left doesn't seem capable of doing much of anything outside of where it is already committed. Meanwhile, if Lukashenko actually joins Putin in the aggression against Ukraine... I think his own people might well rise up. His hold on power seemed very tenuous at the last election, and I don't think it would take much for people there to revolt. If a few Belarusian military units said Nyet to following orders, it might snowball very quickly. Not predicting it will happen... but it's pretty conceivable.

And to preempt the usual reminders of Russia's manpower/size, I think if Ukraine can hang on into early spring Russia will be unable to mount any sort of offensive next summer. Russia will be severely hamstrung in its ability to fire artillery (lack of barrels), manuever (lack of armored vehicles), or lob missiles (they will probably run out of North Korean ones and I doubt China will offer any). Also, as numbers of F-16s grow the Ukrainian Air Force will start to significantly challenge Russian airpower (which is steadily degrading). I think Russian frontline troops are going to start being on the receiving end of 2,000lb weapons before long. I think next summer is when peace talks will get real.
(just to add to your comments)

There were spot shortages of heating energy in Russia last winter.
We shall see what happens this winter.
The sanctions imposed after 2014 seizure of Crimea are having an effect on Russian capability to extract oil. (they completely lost their arctic ocean drilling when Exxon left).
Gazprom is losing 100's of millions.

I know I sound like a broken record, but it is impossible to understand the Russian economy or society without first sorting out the relationship of---organized crime/criminality: state police: government.
They are connected and also a principle reason why Russia is so disfunctional.
There are no reliable sources regarding Russian GDP, employment, or inflation.. (inflation for a given product is often locally determined by whatever profit level the local "roofs" desire. Or whatever good will they desire from unknown entities)

Belarus has always been poor due to it's poor quality farm land. Off the top of my head I can't think of any high degree of resources.
Marshland can only support a small number of people. WhiteRussia's poverty, which dates back centuries, is imbedded in the land and lack of resources.
MaxQ is offline  
Old 08-26-2024, 10:19 AM
  #3830  
Perennial Reserve
 
Excargodog's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,107
Default ECONPOL sanctions analysis

Originally Posted by MaxQ
(just to add to your comments)

There were spot shortages of heating energy in Russia last winter.
We shall see what happens this winter.
The sanctions imposed after 2014 seizure of Crimea are having an effect on Russian capability to extract oil. (they completely lost their arctic ocean drilling when Exxon left).
Gazprom is losing 100's of millions.

I know I sound like a broken record, but it is impossible to understand the Russian economy or society without first sorting out the relationship of---organized crime/criminality: state police: government.
They are connected and also a principle reason why Russia is so disfunctional.
There are no reliable sources regarding Russian GDP, employment, or inflation.. (inflation for a given product is often locally determined by whatever profit level the local "roofs" desire. Or whatever good will they desire from unknown entities)

Belarus has always been poor due to it's poor quality farm land. Off the top of my head I can't think of any high degree of resources.
Marshland can only support a small number of people. WhiteRussia's poverty, which dates back centuries, is imbedded in the land and lack of resources.

Monitoring the Impact of Sanctions on the Russian Economy

August 26, 2024

Policy Report
News
The report highlights the effects of international sanctions on Russia's economic performance up to mid-2024. Despite monetary tightening, Russia's early 2024 economic growth remained strong due to a tight labor market and continued credit expansion. The fiscal outlook has improved with more positive short- and medium-term projections despite increased military and social spending. The trade surplus remained almost unchanged, masking declines in both exports and imports. Russian imports surged at the end of 2023 but have recently declined: Increased payment difficulties with third countries, exacerbated by recent U.S. executive orders, have suppressed imports despite strong domestic demand and the ruble's real effective appreciation since late 2023. In terms of trade of high-priority sanctioned products, an analysis of quantities and values traded reveals that Russia has shifted towards lower-quality suppliers from countries like China, Türkiye, and Kazakhstan. The sanctions' effectiveness thus largely depends on substituting high-quality Western goods with lower-quality alternatives. In 2023, Russia secured between 60% and 170% of sanctioned high-priority items compared to 2021 levels.


EconPol Policy Report 51
https://www.econpol.eu/news/monitori...ussian-economy

Now I'll grant you that every estimate is a little uncertain, even our own. But it really looks like at least partial workarounds have been found for a lot of the sanctions...


Also worth a perusal:

Tightening the Screw? — EU’s New Sanctions on Russia

By Alexander Kolyandr
August 26, 2024
​​​​​​​https://cepa.org/article/tightening-...ons-on-russia/
Excargodog is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Boeing Aviator
United
18
03-22-2022 11:04 AM
decrabbitz
FedEx
8
09-18-2021 10:22 PM
HerkDriver
Cargo
5
09-18-2007 01:56 PM
DiamondZ
Cargo
16
03-22-2007 10:38 AM
RockBottom
Hangar Talk
0
08-22-2006 07:35 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



Your Privacy Choices