ReluctantEskimo

I can always tell when I've landed a punch, because METO and Ex both go spinning off onto wild tangents.

I hope you enjoyed your 4th, courtesy of French military and financial support.

Excargodog

Wouldn't even try. And due to logistics and manpower advantages (Read Kipling's Arithmetic on the Frontier) we got our freedom. Didn't stop the French losing at Waterloo though. But with Ukraine, they are on the wrong end of the logistics and manpower. Big difference.

Sliceback

Hahahhahahahaha.

Thank GOODNESS nothing happened between 1922-1991.
Thank GOODNESS the years RIGHT before 1922 DIDN'T show Russia ATTACKING it's neighobors to make them vassel (puppet) states.
Thank GOODNES Komrade Kargo is teaching modern history to the unknowing. Ukraine, and a lot of other states, were 'aligned' with the USSR because Russia kicked the sh*t out of them in 1917-1921 (nice choice of starting at 1922).
NATO is the force that post WWII prevented Russia from doing it after WWII.
No wonder Russia is ****ed about NATO, it's preventing Russia from attacking it's neighbors.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...icts_in_Europe

• 1917–1921 Russian Civil War
  • 1917–1918 Red Army invasion of Georgia
  • 1917–1921 Ukrainian War of Independence
    • 1917–1921 Ukrainian–Soviet War
    • 1918–1919 Polish–Ukrainian War
  • 1918–1924 Left-wing uprisings against the Bolsheviks
    • 1918 Left SR uprising
    • 1921 Kronstadt rebellion
  • 1918–1922 Heimosodat
    • 1918 Viena expedition
    • 1918 Aunus expedition
    • 1918–1920 Petsamo expeditions
    • 1918–1920 National revolt of Ingrian Finns
    • 1921–1922 East Karelian Uprising
  • 1918–1920 Estonian War of Independence
  • 1918–1925 Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War
    • 1918–1920 North Russia Intervention
    • 1918–1922 Siberian Intervention
  • 1918 Georgian–Armenian War
  • 1918–1920 Georgian–Ossetian conflict (1918–20)
  • 1918–1919 Georgian-Russian conflict over Sochi
  • 1918–1920 Armenian–Azerbaijani War
  • 1918–1920 Latvian War of Independence
  • 1918–1920 Lithuanian Wars of Independence
    • 1918–1919 Lithuanian–Soviet War
    • 1919 Lithuanian War of Independence (War against the Bermontians)
    • 1920 Polish–Lithuanian War
  • 1919–1921 Polish–Soviet War
  • 1921 Georgian–Russian War
  • 1924 Georgian Uprising against Soviet Union
• 1919–1920 Revolutions and interventions in Hungary (1918–20)
  • 1918–1919 Hungarian–Romanian War
  • 1918–1919 Hungarian–Czechoslovak War
  • 1918 Yugoslav occupation of Međimurje
  • 1919 Hutsul Uprising
• 1919 Monarchy of the North uprising
• 1919 Sejny Uprising
• 1919 Khotyn Uprising
• 1918–1919 Austro-Slovene conflict in Carinthia
• 1918–1958 Polish–Czechoslovak border conflicts
  • 1919 Polish-Czech war for Teschen Silesia
• 1918–1919 German Revolution
• 1918–1919 Greater Poland Uprising
• 1919–1922 Greco-Turkish War
• 1918–1921 Franco-Turkish War
• 1920 Armenian-Turkish War
• 1919 Christmas Uprising
• 1919–1920 Unrest in Split
• 1919–1921 Silesian Uprisings
  • 1919 First Silesian Uprising
  • 1920 Second Silesian Uprising
  • 1921 Third Silesian Uprising
• 1919–1922 Irish War of Independence
• 1920 Husino rebellion
• 1920 Vlora War
• 1920 Kapp Putsch
• 1920 Ruhr Uprising
• 1920 Slutsk Defence Action
• 1920–1924 Biennio Rosso
• 1921 Uprising in West Hungary
• 1921 February Uprising
• 1921 Charles IV of Hungary's attempts to retake the throne
• 1922–1923 Irish Civil War
• 1923 Corfu incident
• 1923 September Uprising
• 1923 Klaipėda Revolt
• 1923 Leonardopoulos–Gargalidis coup d'état attempt
• 1924 1924 Estonian coup d'état attempt
• 1924 August Uprising
• 1925 Incident at Petrich
• 1932 Mäntsälä rebellion
• 1933 Casas Viejas incident
• 1933 Anarchist uprising in Spain (1933)
• 1934 Asturian miners' strike of 1934
• 1934 Austrian Civil War
• 1935 1935 Greek coup d'état attempt
• 1936–1939 Spanish Civil War
• 1938 1938 Greek coup d'état attempt
• 1939 German occupation of Czechoslovakia
• 1939 Hungarian invasion of Carpatho-Ukraine
• 1939 Italian invasion of Albania
• 1939–1965 Spanish Maquis
• 1939–1940 S-Plan
• 1939–1945 World War II
  • 1939 Nazi German invasion of Poland
  • 1939 Soviet invasion of Poland
  • 1939–1940 Winter War(Soviet invasion of Finland)
  • 1940 Phoney War
  • 1940 Operation Weserübung
  • 1940 Norwegian campaign
  • 1940 Occupation of Iceland
  • 1940 Invasion of Luxembourg
  • 1940 Battle of the Netherlands
  • 1940 Battle of Belgium
  • 1940 Battle of France
  • 1940 Italian invasion of France
  • 1940 Soviet invasion of the Baltic States
  • 1940 Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina
  • 1940 Battle of Britain
  • 1940–1941 Greco-Italian War
  • 1941–1945 Soviet–German War
  • 1941–1945 Yugoslav anti-fascist resistance movement
  • 1941–1944 Continuation War
  • 1941 Uprising in Montenegro
  • 1942 Case Blue
  • 1942–1944 Northern Campaign
  • 1942–1956 Ukrainian Insurgent Army
  • 1943 Italian Campaign
  • 1944 Operation Market Garden
  • 1944 Warsaw Uprising
  • 1944 Western Allied invasion of Germany
  • 1944–1945 Lapland War
  • 1944–1945 Slovak National Uprising
  • 1944–1945 Liberation of France
  • 1944–1945 Battle of the Bulge
  • 1945 Second Battle of the Alps
  • 1945 Battle of Berlin
• 1944–1956 Guerrilla war in the Baltic states
• 1945–1949 Greek Civil War
• 1946–1948 Corfu Channel incident
• 1947–1962 Romanian anti-communist resistance movement
• 1953 Uprising in East Germany
• 1955–1959 Cyprus Emergency
• 1956 Uprising in Poznań
• 1956 Hungarian Revolution
• 1956–1962 Operation Harvest
• 1958 First Cod War
• 1959–2011 Basque conflict
• 1967 Greek coup d'état
• 1968 Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia
• 1968–1998 The Troubles
• 1968–1988 Unrest in Italy
• 1972–1973 Second Cod War
• 1974 Turkish invasion of Cyprus
• 1974 Carnation Revolution
• 1975 Coup of 25 November 1975
• 1975–1976 Third Cod War
• 1976–2016 Corsican conflict
• 1981 Spanish coup d'état attempt
• 1986 Evros River incident
• 1988–1994 First Nagorno-Karabakh War
• 1989–1995 Gagauzia conflict
• 1989 Romanian Revolution
• 1990 Log Revolution
• 1990–1991 Soviet attacks on Lithuanian border posts
• 1990–present Transnistria conflict
  • 1990–1992 Transnistria War
• 1991 January Events
• 1991 The Barricades

MaxQ

Thank you for that list Slice.
Didn't read them all, many I am ignorant of. However some that are obscure in the West I was pleased to see. (1918 Sejny uprising for one. Also the Polish-Soviet War was what finally brought WW1 to and end, and changed Lenin's Revolutionary plans from European to drawn borders. Stalin changed it further to "Socialism in one country")

Since the expanded invasion of Ukraine in 2022 I have been frustrated by both ignorance and lack of understanding of what American's call "Eastern Europe". I should not be surprised. Though European, it is not Western Europe. It is different, for many reasons.
to my thinking, it is partly due to:
1. the trauma of the Mongol invasions.
2. Followed by centuries of dealing with Russian expansion and aggression. Poland/Lithuania was the main wall aginst expansion West, and was imperialistic in it's own right. But (my opinion) it was a much more moderate imperialism....cosmopoliton Roman Catholic vs isolated Russian Orthodox. Elected Kings and nobles with rights vs an autocratic tsar and terrified nobility.
Tsarist Russia was ruthless, and always acquisitive for more conquered lands and peoples.
3. Genocidal and colonistic Teutonic Knights of yore, and from Frederick on the Prussians/Germans.

I have tried to understand how it is that people who know a great deal understand so little. I latched on to Isaih Berlin's observation of 'knowing history is not the same as understanding history' (approximate quote)
Re-readingSnyder's "Bloodlands" the other day gave me a "aha" moment.
In introduction he points out that we often break down history into isolated national histories. Polish, Belarussian, Lithuanian, Jewish etc. He posits that they must be viewed together to understand what has happened.
But more importantly he points out the obvious. I saw it in my parents. In the large number of people from my generation who were born in raised there. Even those of us raised in USA, but here due to what happened. And it is this. The mass killing.
....." Mass killing seperated Jewish history, and east European history. Murder did not make the nations, but still conditions their intellectual seperation, decades after the end of National Socialism and Stalinism."

The numbers outright murdered by Nazi and Stalinist ideology and it's actors, in just 12 years, is almost incomprehensible. (Snyder puts the number at 14 million...which excludes those many more millions who died due to indirect causes other than direct murder)

This "intellectual seperation" is something American's and western Europeans don't get. They think that all dealings with "Holy Russia" (and Germany) are going to be viewed in the same way. It is not, will not, and cannot, be viewed with same perspective.

METO Guido

And I submit ‘they’ do get it. The list above is prima facie evidence why continued US engagement will not, cannot be decisive.

MaxQ

Berin's quote was "knowing history is not the same as having a sense of history".
Not much different, but a significant nuance.

vaxedtothemax

Wait...Joe just said he solved Ukraine, and the Middle East was almost solved. It's in the works. It must be true, George Stephanapuouls didn't have a follow up question for that. Call me shocked.

MaxQ

First off...the USA is not engaged.

Secondly, many conflate aid to Ukraine with other USA interventions. They are very different.

Thirdly, "they", and yourself, truly DO NOT get it. The "intellectual seperation" Snyder referenced is simply too large a chasm.

There is nothing wrong with that. It is only natural that we have limits of insight regarding the trauma of other peoples. It would be like me thinking I had a deep understanding of the Chinese and how they view the world because I read a few online articles about their history and a couple of books by Pearl Buck.
What is galling is the refusal to recognize the limitations of being an outsider and thinking one has an internet insight into other societies.

By our logic the Vietnamese were beyond stupid to fight. Our logic is probably the main reason we lost.
By similar logic, Britain was foolish to:
A: Declare war on Germany in 1939
B: After the defeat on the continent to not make a negotiated settlement with Hitler, leaving the continent to Germany, and avoiding furtherance of a bloody war.
C. By more similar logic, the USA was foolish to materialy assist Britain as they chose to continue to fight. A corrollary would also be America foolishly providing material aid to Germany's invaded ally, the USSR.

We would live in a profoundly different world today had A, B, or C been the paths followed. (Oh wait. A significant number of today's living, wouldn't even be).

The suffering if Man decides to allow international piracy and barbarism to once again become accepted and normal is beyond calculation.
Not all predators tthreaten total destruction. But some do much more so. And if predators as an aggregate are free to roam, then eventually all are doomed.

Excargodog

https://www.politico.eu/article/slov...-viktor-orban/

Slovakia’s Fico laments not visiting Putin with Orbán

While blasting progressive ideology as “poison” and “cancer,” Slovak leader honors Slavic cultural forebears, in first public outing since attack.

​​​​​​​

METO Guido

Bull. Although we did manage to resolve the Cod fish wars.

This is a fight over control of Black Sea trade. For which the US inherits proxy debt plus whatever a reequipping NATO rip off costs nowadays. Stupid is as stupid does, Forrest's mama was right.