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Old 02-17-2023, 02:15 PM
  #331  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
I think our reality is that we tend to try to do the moral thing, informed by realpolitik since the opinion and finances of the people who die and pay for such expeditions does matter in the long run.

Other nations tend to operate more on realpolitik, informed by morality since sometimes their voters care about that (the ones that actually have real elections anyway).
I’m less sure. Although FDR did his best to get us prepared for WWII, absent the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor I’m fairly certain that Great Britain would have fallen before we were convinced to get involved. And then what? The logistics involved in attempting to reclaim it by invading from the East Coast, Greenland, or Iceland, would have been an order of magnitude more difficult than the Normandy invasion which - Lord knows - was difficult enough. And deprived of English bases, the air war against Germany would most likely never have occurred.

And certainly, with the war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by Japan in China we had adequate moral reasons to go after the Japanese before Pearl Harbor.

https://www.history.com/topics/asian...njing-massacre

And even after the war, things like Operation Paper Clip and the amnesty granted to those running Unit 731, suggest that what was viewed as pragmatism certainly interfered with moral justice.


https://unit731.org

https://www.history.com/news/what-wa...tion-paperclip
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Old 02-17-2023, 03:13 PM
  #332  
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Worth the read…

https://carnegieendowment.org/2023/0...ning-pub-89071

An excerpt:

It is tempting to conclude that the war presently being waged on the territory of Ukraine actually benefits the United States and Europe—their major adversary is being weakened while the West only expends treasure (and not too much of it at that); Ukraine is doing all the fighting while Western militaries learn valuable lessons from the battlefield; the NATO alliance has received the wake-up call it desperately needed; and the war has effectively taken one great power out of competition.

But no matter how appealing this cold-blooded rationality may be to some, it ignores the reality of a long war in Europe and the moral aspect of pretending to wage a war against Russia at arm’s length, with only Ukrainian lives at stake. It ignores the risk of escalation, even if not nuclear, and the possibility of NATO joining the fight directly. The idea that the West can just give Kyiv the tools to “finish the job,” despite its Churchillian ring, is not grounded either in history or in reality: Great Britain could not finish the job alone when Churchill, in February of 1941, pleaded for the United States to send arms. The job was finished only after Hitler attacked the Soviet Union and the United States entered the war later that year, and it took four more years. And the same is true now, given Russia’s major advantages over Ukraine in a long war of attrition. Worse yet, Russia’s military stature has been diminished, but its reputation as a dangerous and unpredictable neighbor brandishing nuclear weapons has been reinforced. Neither the United States nor its NATO allies are prepared to be drawn directly into this war.

​​​That leaves the United States and its allies without any good options as the war enters its second year, except to ramp up military support and hope for the best. It is not morally right to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian, but it is not right either to dictate to Ukrainians what they should settle for in their just war. A land-for-peace compromise is not an option for them, especially since it is unlikely to bring them the kind of stable, durable peace they need and deserve. They would live under a constant threat of renewed Russian aggression.
Russia does not appear ready for a compromise either. Ukraine’s terms for negotiations with Russia—restoration of 1991 borders, reparations, and war crimes tribunals—are nothing short of demands for an unconditional surrender. Russia accepting these terms is not even a remote prospectThe war can continue along three possible scenarios: a stalemate; Ukraine wins; or Russia wins. The first scenario in effect becomes a forever war, perhaps something similar to the permanent standoff on the Korean Peninsula. The second scenario carries with it the risk of a dramatic escalation by Russia, which in turn could prompt NATO to become directly involved in combat. The third scenario too carries with it the danger of a direct NATO-Russia confrontation as the prospect of Russia prevailing on the battlefield will lead to calls for NATO to become involved in order to save Ukraine.

Of the three, the first scenario—forever war—is the path of least resistance associated with the least immediate risks

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Old 02-17-2023, 05:18 PM
  #333  
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
I’m less sure. Although FDR did his best to get us prepared for WWII, absent the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor I’m fairly certain that Great Britain would have fallen before we were convinced to get involved. And then what? The logistics involved in attempting to reclaim it by invading from the East Coast, Greenland, or Iceland, would have been an order of magnitude more difficult than the Normandy invasion which - Lord knows - was difficult enough. And deprived of English bases, the air war against Germany would most likely never have occurred.

And certainly, with the war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by Japan in China we had adequate moral reasons to go after the Japanese before Pearl Harbor.

https://www.history.com/topics/asian...njing-massacre

And even after the war, things like Operation Paper Clip and the amnesty granted to those running Unit 731, suggest that what was viewed as pragmatism certainly interfered with moral justice.


https://unit731.org

https://www.history.com/news/what-wa...tion-paperclip

That's history. FDR did what he could to get after the moral thing, restricted by the realpolitik of a young nation which was not yet the global cop and had a lot of isolationist sentiment.

A modern perspective would be the Balkans vs. Africa. US pols thought they could get away with helping out in the Balkans. But we've rarely tried to interfere in various conflicts on the African continent (other than a few cold war proxy engagements)... apparently the political winds don't blow quite that direction.

Now in many cases we've arranged/facilitated/encouraged humanitarian intervention without putting our own boots on the ground. Sometimes it's more expedient to let allies do the heavy lift if they're geographically, economically, and/or politically closer to the problem. Ex. East Timor and UR. Also UK and other allies prior to Dec 1941.
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Old 02-19-2023, 09:18 AM
  #334  
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Default And gradually things are ratcheting up….




https://thehill.com/policy/internati...al-assistance/

An excerpt:

“China is trying to have it both ways,” Blinken told NBC News’s Chuck Todd in an interview set to air on Sunday. “Publicly, they present themselves as a country striving for peace in Ukraine. But privately, as I said, we’ve seen already over these past months the provision of non-lethal assistance that does go directly to aiding and abetting Russia’s war effort.”

He added that further information indicates that Beijing is considering providing “materiel support to Russia’s war effort that would have a lethal effect.”

However, Blinken noted that China has not yet provided lethal assistance to Russia.

“We see China considering this. We have not seen them cross that line,” he said. “So, I think it’s important that we make clear, as I did this evening in my meeting with Wang Yi, that this is something that is of deep concern to us.”

“I made clear the importance of not crossing that line and the fact that it would have serious consequences on our own relationship, something that we do not need on top of the balloon incident that China is engaged in,” Blinken added
And then the follow up:

U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Linda Thomas-Greenfield on Sunday warned of “consequences” if China moves to provide lethal aid to Russia after Secretary of State Antony Blinken warned Beijing was “strongly considering” the assistance.

Asked what specifically those consequences would entail, Thomas-Greenfield said on CNN’s “State of the Union” that the U.S. isn’t going to announce its plans, but has communicated the ramifications to Beijing.“We’re not going to advance and announce what we’re planning to do but we made clear to the Chinese that there will be consequences should they make that unfortunate decision,” Thomas-Greenfield said

Blinken in an interview with NBC News airing on Sunday warned that China is “strongly considering” providing Russia with “lethal assistance” as Moscow’s war on Ukraine reaches its one-year mark on Friday.

“Our message to China is China should not do anything that will provide lethal support to the Russians to assist them in their brutal attacks on the Ukrainian people,” Thomas-Greenfield said on CNN, adding that both Blinken and President Biden “made that message clear” in talks with Chinese officials.
https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-...aid-to-russia/

Anyone care to speculate on what effect that sort of warning will have on the Chinese? Will they now back down? Will they take it as a challenge and provide lethal aid just to show they don’t take orders from us? Will they up the ante somewhere else - like with Taiwan?

I confess, I don’t know the answer to those questions. My fear is that neither does anyone else.

Last edited by Excargodog; 02-19-2023 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 02-20-2023, 09:27 AM
  #335  
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
I confess, I don’t know the answer to those questions. My fear is that neither does anyone else.
I don't know, but I suspect somebody is playing chess, and it's probably the PRC. Vlad can't even find all of his checkers that got knocked over on the floor.

PRC may have decided to offer some insubstantial provisions just so RU doesn't think PRC doesn't love them anymore. In the hope/assumption that the west will forget about it soon.

They may be doing it for the benefit of the west, to show "axis" solidarity.

Perhaps most likely they're doing it so Putin owes them one, and will have to stand with them (at least politically if not materially) during a PRC Taiwan/SCS operation.
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Old 02-20-2023, 09:48 AM
  #336  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
I don't know, but I suspect somebody is playing chess, and it's probably the PRC. Vlad can't even find all of his checkers that got knocked over on the floor.

PRC may have decided to offer some insubstantial provisions just so RU doesn't think PRC doesn't love them anymore. In the hope/assumption that the west will forget about it soon.

They may be doing it for the benefit of the west, to show "axis" solidarity.

Perhaps most likely they're doing it so Putin owes them one, and will have to stand with them (at least politically if not materially) during a PRC Taiwan/SCS operation.
Cheap oil and vast Russian mineral wealth likely plays into it as well. On the other hand, threatening the PRC if they trade with Russia is definitely poking the dragon…
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Old 02-20-2023, 11:26 AM
  #337  
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
Cheap oil and vast Russian mineral wealth likely plays into it as well. On the other hand, threatening the PRC if they trade with Russia is definitely poking the dragon…
That would be one reason to play nice with RU.

But long game wrt to resources... PRC might be better off letting RU flounder, then just walk across the border and help themselves to the RFE at some future point.
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Old 02-20-2023, 02:05 PM
  #338  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
That would be one reason to play nice with RU.

But long game wrt to resources... PRC might be better off letting RU flounder, then just walk across the border and help themselves to the RFE at some future point.
Lots of “mights.” But “saving face” or mianzi as the Chinese call it, is very important in their culture. Publicly threatening them is not the way to get their approval or agreement and it may in fact force them to do something against their own best interests just to offset that loss of face.


https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/...=1&isAllowed=y
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Old 02-20-2023, 06:49 PM
  #339  
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
Lots of “mights.” But “saving face” or mianzi as the Chinese call it, is very important in their culture. Publicly threatening them is not the way to get their approval or agreement and it may in fact force them to do something against their own best interests just to offset that loss of face.


https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/...=1&isAllowed=y
I know that. They know that. We know that. And they know that we know that.

At this level you have to assume that they are playing off our informed diplomatic desire to not offend them unnecessarily.

If they *really* can't afford to lose face on an issue, then they will consider very, very carefully before they provoke a reaction which might cause said loss of face. For example, invading Taiwan... they simply cannot afford to try and fail. If they go there, they will be confident they can win (they should not be confident at this point). They might have bad data and make a bad decision on that basis, but they won't knowingly throw a hail mary with ROC.

They might be just slightly more willing to take chances with the SCS, since that's not black-and-white all or nothing.
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Old 02-20-2023, 08:40 PM
  #340  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
I know that. They know that. We know that. And they know that we know that.

At this level you have to assume that they are playing off our informed diplomatic desire to not offend them unnecessarily.

If they *really* can't afford to lose face on an issue, then they will consider very, very carefully before they provoke a reaction which might cause said loss of face. For example, invading Taiwan... they simply cannot afford to try and fail. If they go there, they will be confident they can win (they should not be confident at this point). They might have bad data and make a bad decision on that basis, but they won't knowingly throw a hail mary with ROC.

They might be just slightly more willing to take chances with the SCS, since that's not black-and-white all or nothing.
“They” might be unable to be as diplomatic as usual. Xi has lost significant face with the failure of the No-COVID policy:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/27/china...mic/index.html

and the modestefficacy of Chinese vaccines once that policy needed to be changed.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...5.2022.2096970

He may need to whip up nationalism or revolutionary fervor to remain in power in a sort of ‘wag the dog’ fashion - although as the Red Guard showed, that can be easier to start than it is to stop in China.

Early on we were awfully worried about what might happen if we turned up the screws too much on Russia or China. I’m not sure what has changed in the last year to give us more confidence that caution isn’t necessary. The Ukrainian Defense Minister saying they’ll be parking their tanks in RedSquare might be great for Ukrainian morale, but it also feeds right into Russian propaganda.
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