Ukraine conflict
#3311
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,595
It will be REPORTED to the security council, as is customary with any act of war. NATO does not require security council to approve it.
Deem necessary, "TO RESTORE AND MAINTAIN PEACE". That is the binding objective and ultimate goal. When you cut out that part of the sentence, it reads the way you want it to read. Too bad that's not how it's read nor interpreted by others.
This assistance is taken forward in concert with other Allies. It is not necessarily military and depends on the material resources of each country. It is therefore left to the judgment of each individual member country to determine how it will contribute. Each country will consult with the other members, bearing in mind that the ultimate aim is to “to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area”.
#3312
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 788
Yawn. Just keep talking in circles.
It will be REPORTED to the security council, as is customary with any act of war. NATO does not require security council to approve it.
Deem necessary, "TO RESTORE AND MAINTAIN PEACE". That is the binding objective and ultimate goal. When you cut out that part of the sentence, it reads the way you want it to read. Too bad that's not how it's read nor interpreted by others.
The ultimate aim is to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. Read that again, slowly.
It will be REPORTED to the security council, as is customary with any act of war. NATO does not require security council to approve it.
Deem necessary, "TO RESTORE AND MAINTAIN PEACE". That is the binding objective and ultimate goal. When you cut out that part of the sentence, it reads the way you want it to read. Too bad that's not how it's read nor interpreted by others.
The ultimate aim is to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. Read that again, slowly.
NATO was never meant to be a mercenary organization.
NATO recognizes that the age of small nations being able to protect themselves from predation of stronger nations is past. It can only be done as an alliance. By definition the smaller nations gain more security then they in themselves can provide in return. Something that regular references to a quote about weak links in an alliance chain simply "doesn't get".
NATO had an original premise of keeping West Germany militarily weak.(now a united Germany). While one can argue that times have changed regarding that philosophy, many people (such as myself) are just fine with it.
NATO recognizes that each country has it's own political process to go through in deciding it's defence budget. Many American's speak of Europe as though they are some sort of monolithic front. (The EU not withstanding) It is much more along the lines of if each of the USA 50 states got to decide how much to contribute to it's own military. (Which it would control). Only participating with the USA DoD to fulfill treaty requirements. Speaking of "Europe can do this, or, Europe can do that" ignores political reality.
In the distant past of thoughtful statesmen being involved with governments around the world, it was understood how significant the security of Europe, The North Atlantic zone of trade, was to the stability of EVERYTHING.It was woven into the very warp and woof of thought, of culture, of how we thought of our children's future. Even what our children's children would think looking back on our actions.
It is beyond my understanding how educated, experienced adults can consider throwing away 3/4 of a century of established statecraft that has contributed to one of the most peaceful eras in Europes long history.
In this age, regarding Europe and North America, there can no longer be the idea of "not my war". It is simply an impossibility. If an appendage of my body becomes infected and gangerous and left unattended, I will die. If I address the infection too late, or with too little effort, I might still survive, but only as a cripple. A part of my body would require amputation.
If she turns her back on participation in Europes affairs and security, the USA will be very lucky if she continues on as merely crippled.
I suspect it would be a much worse future than that.
#3313
Let me explain to you -
You need to get educated. You need to read up on the issues. You don't know what type of military experience I have, my degrees, my interests, or my specialities. You brought nothing to the discussion (which discussion??).
What's funny is he's throwing bricks at others while *he* has no clue what the answers to those questions are from the people he thinks are ignorant of the REAL (ask him what they are) issues are. I asked him what his military experience and training was, his degrees, etc, etc when he made that comment and he said "I've posted it before. Look it up." He's not General Hodges or Patraeus so I'd rather stick with the real experts insights. BTW their resumes are available to anyone who's interested. I'm drawing a blank on the USAF 3 star (4 star?) with the goatee that also provides excellent insight into the issues. USAFE Commander at one point?? Regardless, a real expert.
You need to get educated. You need to read up on the issues. You don't know what type of military experience I have, my degrees, my interests, or my specialities. You brought nothing to the discussion (which discussion??).
What's funny is he's throwing bricks at others while *he* has no clue what the answers to those questions are from the people he thinks are ignorant of the REAL (ask him what they are) issues are. I asked him what his military experience and training was, his degrees, etc, etc when he made that comment and he said "I've posted it before. Look it up." He's not General Hodges or Patraeus so I'd rather stick with the real experts insights. BTW their resumes are available to anyone who's interested. I'm drawing a blank on the USAF 3 star (4 star?) with the goatee that also provides excellent insight into the issues. USAFE Commander at one point?? Regardless, a real expert.
But in fact, it just doesn't matter, because appealing to authority (especially if you don't know who or what the authority is) doesn't substitute for facts and certainly not for facts today.
#3314
Yawn. Just keep talking in circles.
It will be REPORTED to the security council, as is customary with any act of war. NATO does not require security council to approve it.
Deem necessary, "TO RESTORE AND MAINTAIN PEACE". That is the binding objective and ultimate goal. When you cut out that part of the sentence, it reads the way you want it to read. Too bad that's not how it's read nor interpreted by others.
The ultimate aim is to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. Read that again, slowly.
It will be REPORTED to the security council, as is customary with any act of war. NATO does not require security council to approve it.
Deem necessary, "TO RESTORE AND MAINTAIN PEACE". That is the binding objective and ultimate goal. When you cut out that part of the sentence, it reads the way you want it to read. Too bad that's not how it's read nor interpreted by others.
The ultimate aim is to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. Read that again, slowly.
What are a NATO member’s collective defense obligations?
Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty states:The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them . . . shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking . . . such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
This language is relatively flexible. It permits each NATO member to decide for itself what action should be taken to address an armed attack on a NATO ally. It does not require any member to respond with military force, although it permits such responses as a matter of international law. A member may decide that instead of responding with force, it will send military equipment to NATO allies or impose sanctions on the aggressor.
If a NATO ally is attacked, would Article 5 authorize the president to send U.S. forces into conflict?
No. Even if a NATO ally is attacked and Article 5 is invoked, the president needs to obtain congressional authorization before sending the military into a conflict zone or otherwise using force. Article 11 of the North Atlantic Treaty explains that “its provisions [shall be] carried out by the Parties in accordance with their respective constitutional processes.” In the United States, that means securing express authorization from Congress, which has the sole constitutional power to declare war and is responsible for military appropriations and oversight.Consider that treaties are made by the president, with the consent of the Senate. If the invocation of a collective defense treaty automatically allowed the president to use force abroad, the House would be wholly excluded from decisions about where, when, and how the country goes to war. The Senate would play a role secondary to the president. Such a scheme would violate the Constitution’s text and design, which vest “[t]he whole powers of war” in Congress, according to a foundational Supreme Court opinion.
Congress endorsed this analysis in the 1973 War Powers Resolution, a Vietnam War-era law that reaffirms the president’s obligation to seek congressional authorization before using offensive force. The War Powers Resolution states that congressional authorization to use force “shall not be inferred . . . from any treaty heretofore or hereafter ratified.”
What about the president’s inherent powers as commander in chief?
The president’s inherent powers as commander in chief would not allow the president to send the military into a conflict zone or otherwise use military force in response to an invocation of Article 5. The Constitution vests the president with the power to defend U.S. territory and citizens, even without express authorization. But it does not permit the president to use force against an adversary who poses no direct threat to the United States, as would be involved in a military campaign to assist a NATO ally.Since the Cold War, executive branch lawyers have tried to broaden the scope of the president’s inherent powers. They have argued that the Constitution permits the president to defend not only U.S. territory and citizens but also more abstract national interests, such as the credibility and effectiveness of the United Nations. As many experts have noted, this open-ended “national interest” theory is constitutionally dubious.
Still, executive branch lawyers concede that the president cannot unilaterally commit the military to a conflict of substantial nature, scope, and duration, even if there is a strong national interest. Any military confrontation between Russia and NATO would surely be of a substantial nature, scope, and duration — and would therefore require congressional authorization. This limitation on the president’s inherent powers explains why President George W. Bush sought congressional authorization for the Afghanistan War and the Iraq War, large-scale conflicts involving ground forces.
You can CHOOSE to interpret Article 5 any way you want, but if you believe it obligates any NATO member to use force, you are simply wrong.
#3315
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2023
Posts: 699
For instance, there are members of the Supreme Court who a desperately trying to find a way to explain that the President is not an officer of the United States.
People will try to poke holes in anything if they're morally deficient enough.
#3317
Words are just ink on parchment. It is up to the character of the men and women in power to intepret them in the way they were intended.
For instance, there are members of the Supreme Court who a desperately trying to find a way to explain that the President is not an officer of the United States.
People will try to poke holes in anything if they're morally deficient enough.
For instance, there are members of the Supreme Court who a desperately trying to find a way to explain that the President is not an officer of the United States.
People will try to poke holes in anything if they're morally deficient enough.
NATO's own documents bear that out:
The principle of providing assistance
With the invocation of Article 5, Allies can provide any form of assistance they deem necessary to respond to a situation. This is an individual obligation on each Ally and each Ally is responsible for determining what it deems necessary in the particular circumstances.This assistance is taken forward in concert with other Allies. It is not necessarily military and depends on the material resources of each country. It is therefore left to the judgment of each individual member country to determine how it will contribute. Each country will consult with the other members, bearing in mind that the ultimate aim is to “to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area”.
At the drafting of Article 5 in the late 1940s, there was consensus on the principle of mutual assistance, but fundamental disagreement on the modalities of implementing this commitment. The European participants wanted to ensure that the United States would automatically come to their assistance should one of the signatories come under attack; the United States did not want to make such a pledge and obtained that this be reflected in the wording of Article 5.
At the drafting of Article 5 in the late 1940s, there was consensus on the principle of mutual assistance, but fundamental disagreement on the modalities of implementing this commitment. The European participants wanted to ensure that the United States would automatically come to their assistance should one of the signatories come under attack; the United States did not want to make such a pledge and obtained that this be reflected in the wording of Article 5.
#3318
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2023
Posts: 699
There are people that believe words mean what they WISH them to mean and that laws are what they WISH they were (or that they were a different gender than they actually are, although that's an argument for a different thread) . But there are commonly accepted norms for the meanings of words and the enforceability of a contract. Article 5 means what is says - it gives the individual country total discretion as to what acts to take or to refrain from taking. You may wish otherwise. You may wish those countries would do precisely what you would do if you were them. But nothing in the NATO Treaty OBLIGATES ANY COUNTRY to perform as you wish. That's just plain fact.
Remember this episode?
Putin must be running out of ammo. To go to NK in person with your hand out shows a very high level of desperation.
#3319
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2022
Posts: 1,437
dont worry bro, this episode wont make the kargo playlist. Only RU approved material here. Weird to have a supposed “officer” in the US now running as a shill for Putin. Never thought id see it. But hey, bots are gonna bot
#3320
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,482
Umhuu. A former USAFE commander with a goatee and a name you can't remember? And you can't even spell Petraeus? Or remember the misdeeds that got him cashiered from his CIA job after only 14 months? Or that FBI and Justice Department prosecutors had recommended bringing felony charges against Petraeus for allegedly providing classified information to his mistress/biographer while serving as director of the CIA (Although he was eventually allowed to plead guilty to a misdemeanor charge)?
But in fact, it just doesn't matter, because appealing to authority (especially if you don't know who or what the authority is) doesn't substitute for facts and certainly not for facts today.
But in fact, it just doesn't matter, because appealing to authority (especially if you don't know who or what the authority is) doesn't substitute for facts and certainly not for facts today.
CIA misdeeds? I can't remember that!?!? Hahahaha, there you go again. I remember that. Read the books that went into the details.
Buddy sends me the USAFE (?) general's interviews. Hasn't done so in awhile...he's been on vacation. I just hung up on him....he can't remember the guy's name either. Doesn't change the fact that *his* expertise runs laps around your and mine understanding of the players and positions of the various nations in NATO.
Took a couple of seconds...retired NATO COMMANDER. Puh...not a punk ass USAFE commander. USAF General (1, 2, 3, 4 stars) Phillip Breedlove. In people are interested in the *WEST's* interests in Ukraine, and not Putin's interests, googling Gen Breedlove is wothwhile.
Of course you're dismissive of a former U.S. NATO Commander...I mean what does *he* know about warfare, NATO's positions, both public and private, dealing with Russia or Putin? He's a putz. :-/
https://kansasreflector.com/2024/04/...defeat-russia/
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