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Old 03-31-2024, 07:06 AM
  #2701  
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Default Exploring that Lippmann quote…

An alliance is like a chain. It is not made stronger by adding weak links to it. A great power like the United States gains no advantage and it loses prestige by offering, indeed peddling, its alliances to all and sundry. An alliance should be hard diplomatic currency, valuable and hard to get, and not inflationary paper from the mimeograph machine in the State Department.

Walter Lippmann
This is a deeper explanation of what the man meant and how it applies to recent NATO expansion:

NATO Security Dependents Are Not Useful Allies

Many of America’s so‐​called allies are major liabilities rather than assets to U.S. foreign policy. Indeed, they are potential snares, ones that can entangle America in unnecessary military confrontations.


JANUARY 8, 2022 • COMMENTARY
By Ted Galen Carpenter
https://www.cato.org/commentary/nato...-useful-allies

Some excerpts:

SINCE THE end of World War II, U.S. officials have had an unduly expansive concept of what constitutes worthwhile strategic allies for the United States. In too many cases, the “allies” that Washington touts are small, weak, often militarily useless dependents. Worse, some of them are on bad terms with more powerful neighboring states. Under those circumstances, the so‐​called allies are major liabilities rather than assets to the United States. Indeed, they are potential snares, ones that can entangle America in unnecessary military confrontations.

Washington would do well to become far more selective about which nations it includes in its roster of allies, and U.S. leaders should stop elevating security dependents to the status of allies. When U.S. officials described the regimes that Washington installed through military force in Afghanistan and Iraq as allies, it became clear that they had lost even minimal understanding of the concept.
​​​​​​​
​​​​​​​ Many of those new members have very little to offer to the United States as security partners. Indeed, some are mini‐​states, bordering on being micro‐​states. Such lightly armed Lilliputians would add little or nothing to Washington’s own capabilities—especially in a showdown with another major power.

As economic assets, their importance is decidedly limited, and militarily, they are even less valuable. It’s hard to see how new NATO allies such as Albania, Slovenia, Montenegro, and North Macedonia enhance America’s power and security. That point should be apparent based on size of population alone. Albania’s 2.87 million, North Macedonia’s 2.1 million, and Slovenia’s 2.07 million people put those countries squarely in the mini‐​state category, while Montenegro’s 628,000 barely deserves even that label. It doesn’t get much better with respect to either annual gross domestic product or size of military forces. Even Slovenia’s $52.8 billion GDP puts that country only eighty‐​sixth in the global rankings. Albania’s $15.2 billion (125th), North Macedonia’s $12.26 billion (135th) and Montenegro’s $4.78 billion (159th) are even less impressive.

The military forces that our new NATO allies can field are not likely to strike fear into Russia or any other would‐​be aggressor. Albania’s armed forces consist of 8,500 active‐​duty personnel, Slovenia’s consist of 8,500, and North Macedonia has 9,000 available. Montenegro’s active‐​duty force totals 2,400. In comparison, the Austin, Texas, police department has 2,422 people in its ranks.

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​​​​​​​THE TEST of whether a specific country is a worthwhile U.S. ally or a useless, perhaps dangerous, dependent should not be terribly difficult. A key question that must be asked is: Does that country substantially add to America’s own economic and military capabilities without creating significant new dangers or vulnerabilities? Only if that question can be answered with an unequivocal “yes,” should the country be considered a beneficial ally. Otherwise, it is either a useless or (even worse) a dangerous security client. U.S. leaders badly need to learn the difference. As a result of NATO’s expanded membership and mission, the United States has acquired a worrisome number of both types
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Old 04-01-2024, 03:11 AM
  #2702  
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
This is a deeper explanation of what the man meant and how it applies to recent NATO expansion:



https://www.cato.org/commentary/nato...-useful-allies

Some excerpts:

Cool, someone doesn't understand what NATO is. He completely lacks understanding why Albania and such are in NATO, and why they are important. It's not that they will "defend America" if needed. That's completely missing the point of NATO, and the countries it has as allies.

​​​​​​​
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Old 04-01-2024, 05:34 AM
  #2703  
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Originally Posted by dera
Cool, someone doesn't understand what NATO is. He completely lacks understanding why Albania and such are in NATO, and why they are important. It's not that they will "defend America" if needed. That's completely missing the point of NATO, and the countries it has as allies.
They most assuredly are NOT important. Albania has a population of less than 3 million people, a GDP of less than $19 Billion, and a military of
about 8000, a DECLINE of 64% since they joined NATO in 2002. The 200 fixed wing aircraft and 50 helicopters they had in 2002 have been reduced to 25 helicopters. There military spending, once 5.5% of their (admittedly small) GDP has now declined to 1.6% of their GDP.

They are a liability rather than an asset that is clearly IN THE STATUS OF A DEPENDENT COUNTRY, not a country that strengthens the alliance to any measurable degree.

But unlike scarcely bigger Estonia, they are at least not advocating putting NATO boots on the ground in the Ukraine.

https://www.politico.eu/article/ukra...r-kaja-kallas/

You do realize that the "an attack against one NATO ally is regarded as an attack against all of NATO" is pretty much reciprocated by a Russian policy of "an attack BY one NATO ally is an attack BY all of NATO" don't you? So do you truly want someone like Ms.Kallas or Lithuania's Mr. Landsbergis to be able to trigger a general war with Russia? We don't even allow our President to do that without the approval of Congress.

And truthfully, would you REALLY go to war with Russia - risk it elevating to a nuclear confrontation - for Albania? Or Estonia (population 1.3 million)? Or Lithuania (population 2.8 million)?

Well, maybe you would, but I doubt that the US citizens as a whole would vote for that.
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Old 04-01-2024, 11:13 AM
  #2704  
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
They most assuredly are NOT important. Albania has a population of less than 3 million people, a GDP of less than $19 Billion, and a military of
about 8000, a DECLINE of 64% since they joined NATO in 2002. The 200 fixed wing aircraft and 50 helicopters they had in 2002 have been reduced to 25 helicopters. There military spending, once 5.5% of their (admittedly small) GDP has now declined to 1.6% of their GDP.

They are a liability rather than an asset that is clearly IN THE STATUS OF A DEPENDENT COUNTRY, not a country that strengthens the alliance to any measurable degree.

But unlike scarcely bigger Estonia, they are at least not advocating putting NATO boots on the ground in the Ukraine.

https://www.politico.eu/article/ukra...r-kaja-kallas/

You do realize that the "an attack against one NATO ally is regarded as an attack against all of NATO" is pretty much reciprocated by a Russian policy of "an attack BY one NATO ally is an attack BY all of NATO" don't you? So do you truly want someone like Ms.Kallas or Lithuania's Mr. Landsbergis to be able to trigger a general war with Russia? We don't even allow our President to do that without the approval of Congress.

And truthfully, would you REALLY go to war with Russia - risk it elevating to a nuclear confrontation - for Albania? Or Estonia (population 1.3 million)? Or Lithuania (population 2.8 million)?

Well, maybe you would, but I doubt that the US citizens as a whole would vote for that.
I trust Ms. Kallas and Mr. Landsbergis much more than any US politician.

Anyway. You just once again show you know nothing about strategy nor geopolitics.

Again. Look where Albania (or Estonia for that) is on the map. If you still can't understand, well, can't help ya.
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Old 04-01-2024, 04:24 PM
  #2705  
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Originally Posted by dera
I trust Ms. Kallas and Mr. Landsbergis much more than any US politician.
Perhaps you ought to live there then.

Again. Look where Albania (or Estonia for that) is on the map. If you still can't understand, well, can't help ya.
Yep. FAR FROM US and in a part of the world that has known one conflict after another since the Bronze Age.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Alb...ions#ref129453

https://www.britannica.com/topic/history-of-Estonia

They could scarcely be less important to the US.
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Old 04-01-2024, 05:43 PM
  #2706  
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
They could scarcely be less important to the US.
Except the whole Article V thing. But you know. It's only paper.

It's only paper until men of honor choose to abide by the words that are written on them.

But that could be said about anything really. We're one psychopath away from abandoning civilization at-large.
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Old 04-01-2024, 07:01 PM
  #2707  
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
Perhaps you ought to live there then.



Yep. FAR FROM US and in a part of the world that has known one conflict after another since the Bronze Age.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Alb...ions#ref129453

https://www.britannica.com/topic/history-of-Estonia

They could scarcely be less important to the US.
Clearly Putin's propaganda has got you. They are very good at what they do.

Take a look at a map. Everything is far from us, you know. Stable rules-driven world is what keeps America relevant, and that geopolitical status quo is very valuable to us. Without it, we'd just be an island in the middle of nowhere.
The cheapest and easiest way to maintain that is to have allies in strategic locations. We are outnumbered after all by the bad guys.
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Old 04-01-2024, 07:03 PM
  #2708  
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Originally Posted by ReluctantEskimo
Except the whole Article V thing. But you know. It's only paper.

It's only paper until men of honor choose to abide by the words that are written on them.

But that could be said about anything really. We're one psychopath away from abandoning civilization at-large.
And right now those psychopaths are getting away with anything they want, because the information wars they have been raging is working on so many here.

155mm artillery rounds is a cheap way to stop a psychopath before he gets completely out of control.
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Old 04-01-2024, 08:06 PM
  #2709  
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Originally Posted by ReluctantEskimo
Except the whole Article V thing. But you know. It's only paper.

It's only paper until men of honor choose to abide by the words that are written on them.
Spoken like someone speaking from ignorance.
Have you ever even READ Article 5? It's diplomatic doublespeak. It doesn't compel anyone to do anything. It gives them permission to do whatever they were going to do anyway.

Article 5

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security .
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_17120.
htm
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Old 04-01-2024, 08:22 PM
  #2710  
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
Spoken like someone speaking from ignorance.
Have you ever even READ Article 5? It's diplomatic doublespeak. It doesn't compel anyone to do anything. It gives them permission to do whatever they were going to do anyway.



https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_17120.
htm
Weasels recognize weasel words.
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