Ukraine conflict
02-27-2024, 08:12 PM
#2371
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,252
Another voice heard from…
https://www.realclearmarkets.com/art...t_1012754.html
An excerpt:
An excerpt:
Yet almost overnight a nation long known for its dishonest and oligarchic ways has become a cause celebre on the left, and within the so-called “Establishment” on the right? Why? And how does putting ourselves at war with Russia make us safer? If the answer is that war with Russia weakens Putin, how did that work out in Iraq after Saddam Hussein was taken out? Non-interventionists aren’t as optimistic as interventionists seemingly are that a Russian version of Thomas Jefferson is waiting in the wings after Putin. How quickly the always certain interventionists forget how disastrous our intervention was in the Middle East…
About the Middle East, conservatives in particular are finally admitting that perhaps the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and broader attempts to “democratize” the Middle East, were much less than successful. Trillions spent, and thousands of lives lost for what? Yet suddenly the very individuals who expressed the utmost certitude about intervening in the Middle East are expressing enormous disgust for skeptics of rising involvement in Ukraine, and surely beyond. It’s as though what happened in the Middle East didn’t happen.
About the Middle East, conservatives in particular are finally admitting that perhaps the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and broader attempts to “democratize” the Middle East, were much less than successful. Trillions spent, and thousands of lives lost for what? Yet suddenly the very individuals who expressed the utmost certitude about intervening in the Middle East are expressing enormous disgust for skeptics of rising involvement in Ukraine, and surely beyond. It’s as though what happened in the Middle East didn’t happen.
02-27-2024, 08:38 PM
#2372
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,903
The important thing to recage is balance. Equilibrium or whatever the postmodern expression is. For every action, to be specific. Which is why meto deep fakes KH. Learn from others. Ting = Tang. Tan over blue. Stay in the V bars. Focus, for chit's sake. There's still time on the clock. Doesn't have to end this way. We're labeled boomers for a reason. Jumping the gun is not recommended.
02-28-2024, 09:34 PM
#2373
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,252
https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/jAOh15DZaYKq1PH05Lfj2A--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTI1NjtoPTYw/https://s.yimg.com/os/creatr-uploaded-images/2020-11/62e21440-2fbd-11eb-95ff-5673fa3d2f9f
Wed, February 28, 2024 at 5:09 AM PST·1
NATO-member Denmark to appoint new army chief after incumbent steps down
ReutersWed, February 28, 2024 at 5:09 AM PST·1
COPENHAGEN (Reuters) - The chief of Denmark's army, Major General Gunner Arpe Nielsen, has resigned ahead of a revamp of the NATO-member's military brought on by the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the Danish armed forces said on Wednesday.
A new chief will be appointed by April, when Nielsen will leave his position after three years in the role.
Nielsen last year acknowledged that the onset of the war in Ukraine and a growing military threat from Russia had revealed major shortcomings in Denmark's ability to defend its territory and meet its NATO commitments.
Independent military analyst Hans Peter Michaelsen told Reuters: "I see this as frustration that the politicians are very closed-minded about how the money should be spent."
"Nothing is being done to beef up the army. The politicians keep talking about the need to invest, but no money has reached the soldiers yet."
Denmark has come under pressure to bring military spending back up to a NATO target of 2% of GDP. Military aid for Ukraine, including donating F-16 fighter jets, has helped Denmark meet that target, although major investments in its own forces have yet to materialize.
Denmark last year pledged to invest 143 billion Danish crowns ($21 billion) in defence over the next 10 years.
Nielsen, 57, will take a new role as deputy head of development and planning for the armed forces. His successor is expected to be appointed soon and start in the role on April 1, the armed forces said.
A new chief will be appointed by April, when Nielsen will leave his position after three years in the role.
Nielsen last year acknowledged that the onset of the war in Ukraine and a growing military threat from Russia had revealed major shortcomings in Denmark's ability to defend its territory and meet its NATO commitments.
Independent military analyst Hans Peter Michaelsen told Reuters: "I see this as frustration that the politicians are very closed-minded about how the money should be spent."
"Nothing is being done to beef up the army. The politicians keep talking about the need to invest, but no money has reached the soldiers yet."
Denmark has come under pressure to bring military spending back up to a NATO target of 2% of GDP. Military aid for Ukraine, including donating F-16 fighter jets, has helped Denmark meet that target, although major investments in its own forces have yet to materialize.
Denmark last year pledged to invest 143 billion Danish crowns ($21 billion) in defence over the next 10 years.
Nielsen, 57, will take a new role as deputy head of development and planning for the armed forces. His successor is expected to be appointed soon and start in the role on April 1, the armed forces said.
02-29-2024, 06:14 PM
#2374
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,252
France again floats idea of sending non-combat troops to Ukraine
PATRICK REEVELLThu, February 29, 2024 at 3:25 AM PST·
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/france-aga...112551235.html
France’s foreign minister has suggested that Western countries should be considering the idea that NATO troops should perhaps be deployed to Ukraine in non-combat roles to assist Ukraine.
Foreign Minister Stéphane Sejourne in France’s parliament on Wednesday elaborated further, saying NATO troops could potentially be deployed into Ukraine to assist with roles such as “demining, cyber operations or weapons production.”
This statement follows President Emmanuel Macron’s comments on Tuesday, saying Western troop deployments to Ukraine should “not be ruled out.”
Macron said troops could do such actions without “crossing the threshold of belligerence” and such things should not be ruled out given Russia’s efforts to destabilize Europe.
France’s suggestions have been firmly rebuffed by some key European states but it appears there is a real growing push among some European countries to at least discuss the possibility of providing more direct military assistance, something that had been previously been taboo.
The Netherlands defense ministry also didn’t rule it out on Tuesday and Macron, along with Slovakia’s prime minister, have both said publicly some countries are actively discussing it.https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/jz0gSBsw86jb4IQ4tVnJ0Q--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTk2MDtoPTU0MA--/https://media.zenfs.com/en/us.abcnews.gma.com/b781b942f59e8bc04e158fcfad721cfb
Foreign Minister Stéphane Sejourne in France’s parliament on Wednesday elaborated further, saying NATO troops could potentially be deployed into Ukraine to assist with roles such as “demining, cyber operations or weapons production.”
This statement follows President Emmanuel Macron’s comments on Tuesday, saying Western troop deployments to Ukraine should “not be ruled out.”
Macron said troops could do such actions without “crossing the threshold of belligerence” and such things should not be ruled out given Russia’s efforts to destabilize Europe.
France’s suggestions have been firmly rebuffed by some key European states but it appears there is a real growing push among some European countries to at least discuss the possibility of providing more direct military assistance, something that had been previously been taboo.
The Netherlands defense ministry also didn’t rule it out on Tuesday and Macron, along with Slovakia’s prime minister, have both said publicly some countries are actively discussing it.https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/jz0gSBsw86jb4IQ4tVnJ0Q--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTk2MDtoPTU0MA--/https://media.zenfs.com/en/us.abcnews.gma.com/b781b942f59e8bc04e158fcfad721cfb
02-29-2024, 07:47 PM
#2375
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,903
Did phoning in the war for Ukraine just get a lot less lol or doesn’t the enlightened, smile in your face media have a fall back position? Because.. phoning in wars doesn’t work? Gotta go kill conscript bad guys along with any number of fodder toddlers & refugee runners. Of whom 100 years from now, no one will remember. Go Army
02-29-2024, 08:17 PM
#2376
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 805
So, are you then saying that President Zelensky and President Biden are being disengenous? Or that they have no brains? Because both have stated that their end goal is the restoration of the Ukraine to its internationally recognized borders:
https://www.state.gov/secretary-blinkens-call-with-ukrainian-president-zelenskyy/
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/09/30/statement-from-president-biden-on-russias-attempts-to-annex-ukrainian-territory/
And just as a side note, hoping to win those on the other side of an issue over by denigrating them seems a losing proposition. My personal belief is that if she had merely passed up the chance to take a cheap shot before her supporters with that "deplorables" comment, we would very likely be in the second term of a Hillary Clinton presidency.
https://www.state.gov/secretary-blinkens-call-with-ukrainian-president-zelenskyy/
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/09/30/statement-from-president-biden-on-russias-attempts-to-annex-ukrainian-territory/
And just as a side note, hoping to win those on the other side of an issue over by denigrating them seems a losing proposition. My personal belief is that if she had merely passed up the chance to take a cheap shot before her supporters with that "deplorables" comment, we would very likely be in the second term of a Hillary Clinton presidency.
We have no idea what President's Zelensky or Biden think regarding the prospects of restoring Ukraine's international borders. We do know that prior to any negotiations that this MUST be the official position of Ukraine. (Not to mention Russian reparations for their crimes against Ukraine and it's people) Their public position HAS to be what it is....until it isn't. (but you have been around long enough to know this)
Cutting off aid to Ukraine makes their negotiating position extremely difficult plus re-invigorates the invader. If Russia knew that the material supply to Ukraine would continue indefinitely they would be more likely to cut their losses, as they do not have the logistical means to compete with what the West can supply.
Your voice, amongst others, contributes to a self fulfilling prophecy.
It is offensive to listen to regret regarding a predicted doom when the speakers are actively engaged in the causation of the predicted doom.
I strongly oppose censorship of opinion. A free society doesn't want to create a "destroy the village in order to save it" world. However, in a healthy society, people should be self reflective enough so as to act as their own constables. This is not some debate contest. The world views of 'tough beans, Mikey should do more, wah' is getting real people killed. As a lengthy phone call reminded me, they are getting killed today.
Hannah Arendt stated one of our most important, yet most neglected, tasks is "simply to think about what we are doing."
If one continuously reads material, or continously takes a position, that aligns with the strategic goals of an outlaw fascist nation, then prudence suggests to find different sources for reading, plus some "thinking about what they are doing".
Last edited by MaxQ; 02-29-2024 at 08:34 PM.
02-29-2024, 10:13 PM
#2377
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,252
Suspect you are being deliberately obtuse to make a point.
We have no idea what President's Zelensky or Biden think regarding the prospects of restoring Ukraine's international borders. We do know that prior to any negotiations that this MUST be the official position of Ukraine. (Not to mention Russian reparations for their crimes against Ukraine and it's people) Their public position HAS to be what it is....until it isn't. (but you have been around long enough to know this)
Cutting off aid to Ukraine makes their negotiating position extremely difficult plus re-invigorates the invader. If Russia knew that the material supply to Ukraine would continue indefinitely they would be more likely to cut their losses, as they do not have the logistical means to compete with what the West can supply.
Your voice, amongst others, contributes to a self fulfilling prophecy.
It is offensive to listen to regret regarding a predicted doom when the speakers are actively engaged in the causation of the predicted doom.
I strongly oppose censorship of opinion. A free society doesn't want to create a "destroy the village in order to save it" world. However, in a healthy society, people should be self reflective enough so as to act as their own constables. This is not some debate contest. The world views of 'tough beans, Mikey should do more, wah' is getting real people killed. As a lengthy phone call reminded me, they are getting killed today.
Hannah Arendt stated one of our most important, yet most neglected, tasks is "simply to think about what we are doing."
If one continuously reads material, or continously takes a position, that aligns with the strategic goals of an outlaw fascist nation, then prudence suggests to find different sources for reading, plus some "thinking about what they are doing".
We have no idea what President's Zelensky or Biden think regarding the prospects of restoring Ukraine's international borders. We do know that prior to any negotiations that this MUST be the official position of Ukraine. (Not to mention Russian reparations for their crimes against Ukraine and it's people) Their public position HAS to be what it is....until it isn't. (but you have been around long enough to know this)
Cutting off aid to Ukraine makes their negotiating position extremely difficult plus re-invigorates the invader. If Russia knew that the material supply to Ukraine would continue indefinitely they would be more likely to cut their losses, as they do not have the logistical means to compete with what the West can supply.
Your voice, amongst others, contributes to a self fulfilling prophecy.
It is offensive to listen to regret regarding a predicted doom when the speakers are actively engaged in the causation of the predicted doom.
I strongly oppose censorship of opinion. A free society doesn't want to create a "destroy the village in order to save it" world. However, in a healthy society, people should be self reflective enough so as to act as their own constables. This is not some debate contest. The world views of 'tough beans, Mikey should do more, wah' is getting real people killed. As a lengthy phone call reminded me, they are getting killed today.
Hannah Arendt stated one of our most important, yet most neglected, tasks is "simply to think about what we are doing."
If one continuously reads material, or continously takes a position, that aligns with the strategic goals of an outlaw fascist nation, then prudence suggests to find different sources for reading, plus some "thinking about what they are doing".
Putin Bad, Ukrainians Good, is not how we got here and people not understanding the buildup to this or the resource mismatches and logistical constraints involved in prosecuting it have nothing to offer when it comes to opining how the negotiations to end this are going to work, and it will almost certainly be ended by negotiation - almost all wars are.
As Santayana said, those who don't learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them. Those treating this like a game and just cheering on the home team need to educate themselves. A serious mistake due to ignorance of the events leading to this war could make all the destruction up to this point seem trivial.
02-29-2024, 10:50 PM
#2378
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2023
Posts: 722
My personal belief is that dealing with facts trumps dealing with wishful thinking. Now my personal BELIEF is that this war was easily avoidable and have pointed out to promises made by the German leadership to gain Russian acquiescence to the reunification of Germany, as well as to the proven promises of the Trilateral process of 1994, the Budapest Memorandum, and the Minsk I and II agreements. There is a long history to this problem and way too many people are pretending this suddenly happened because Putin got a wild hair up his @$$.
Putin Bad, Ukrainians Good, is not how we got here and people not understanding the buildup to this or the resource mismatches and logistical constraints involved in prosecuting it have nothing to offer when it comes to opining how the negotiations to end this are going to work, and it will almost certainly be ended by negotiation - almost all wars are.
As Santayana said, those who don't learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them. Those treating this like a game and just cheering on the home team need to educate themselves. A serious mistake due to ignorance of the events leading to this war could make all the destruction up to this point seem trivial.
Putin Bad, Ukrainians Good, is not how we got here and people not understanding the buildup to this or the resource mismatches and logistical constraints involved in prosecuting it have nothing to offer when it comes to opining how the negotiations to end this are going to work, and it will almost certainly be ended by negotiation - almost all wars are.
As Santayana said, those who don't learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them. Those treating this like a game and just cheering on the home team need to educate themselves. A serious mistake due to ignorance of the events leading to this war could make all the destruction up to this point seem trivial.
What leverage do you have in your pocket? Tell me, how do negotiations begin to discuss a peaceful way forward? And how do you push back if Putin overreaches? Or can he in your eyes?
03-01-2024, 12:19 AM
#2379
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2023
Posts: 722
Negotiations require leverage. And if you're unwilling to go to the mat if you're pushed too far, then you have none.
03-01-2024, 06:53 AM
#2380
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,252
Okay Mr. Negotiator. What do we give Putin? What do we demand from him? What leverage do you have in your pocket? Where's your redline? What if Putin goes for Moldova in 6 months? Or Estonia?
Negotiations require leverage. And if you're unwilling to go to the mat if you're pushed too far, then you have none.
Negotiations require leverage. And if you're unwilling to go to the mat if you're pushed too far, then you have none.
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-b...-leaders-early
The "if you aren't willing to go to the mat if you are pushed too far" statement cuts both ways. This isn't just about Putin being a madman his people are largely supporting him on this. Sure, Russians are paranoid but their are a LOT of paranoid ethnic groups in Europe. And old animosities because of past wrongs.
Do you understand the history that got us to this point or do you not care if we repeat the mistakes of the past?
Not to mention 5000 nukes. What is YOUR redline for Estonia, a country of 1.3 million people that is 25% ethnic Russian by the way? What is your redline for Transnistria which is plurality Russian and has had Russian "peacekeepers" in it since the 1990s although recognized as part of Moldova? Do we send NATO troops in to root those "peacekeepers" out? What is your redline for Kaliningrad, a million people, about 90% Russians, and completely surrounded by NATO? That used to be part of Germany - well, Prussia actually?
All of Europe is a patchwork quilt of displaced people. What is YOUR redline for getting them to live peacefully together and why should we be the ones to fund it and take the risks of making it happen? And please don't say 'because we are the only ones who can,".
We couldn't pacify the Taliban in 20 years.
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