Search

Notices
Hangar Talk For non-aviation-related discussion and aviation threads that don't belong elsewhere

Ukraine conflict

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 02-22-2024, 04:35 AM
  #2321  
Perennial Reserve
 
Excargodog's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,115
Default Another voice heard from…

WORLD NEWS

Desperate for soldiers, Ukraine weighs unpopular plan to expand the draft




https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-russia-war-draft-b2ca1d0ecd72019be2217a653989fbc2

Some excerpts:

LYMAN, Ukraine (AP) — When the Russian army mounted a full-scale invasion two years ago, Ukrainian men zealously rushed to recruitment centers across the country to enlist, ready to die in defense of their nation.

Today, with Russia in control of roughly one-quarter of Ukraine and the two armies virtually deadlocked along a 1,000-kilometer (620-mile) front line, that spirit to enlist has faded: Many Ukrainian men are evading the draft by hiding at home or trying to bribe their way out of the battle.

Along the frigid and muddy front line, commanders say their army is too small and made up of too many exhausted and wounded soldiers. As the war enters its third year, the most urgent and politically sensitive challenge pressing on Ukraine is whether it can muster enough new soldiers to repel an enemy with far more fighters at its disposal.

To replenish its ranks, the Ukrainian government is struggling to find a balance between coercion and persuasion.

The parliament is considering legislation that would increase the potential pool of recruits by about 400,000, in part by lowering the enlistment age from 27 to 25. But the proposal is highly unpopular, forcing elected officials to grapple with questions that cut to the heart of nationhood: Can they convince enough citizens to sacrifice their lives? And, if not, are they willing to accept the alternative?

WHO WILL DIG THE TRENCHES?



Because there aren’t enough new recruits, soldiers on the front line aren’t getting enough rest in between rotations. Two years of grueling battles have left men fatigued and more susceptible to injury. When there are new recruits, they are too few, too poorly trained and often too old, according to interviews with two dozen Ukrainian soldiers, including six commanders.

Commanders say they don’t have enough soldiers to launch offensives, and barely enough to hold positions amid intensifying Russian assaults.

Brigades of 3,000-5,000 soldiers are typically fighting with only 75% of their full strength, according to Vadym Ivchenko, a lawmaker who is part of the parliament’s national security, defense and intelligence committee. Some brigades have as few as 25%, he added.

Igor Ivantsev, 31, has been wounded twice in the span of four months. His body aches when he carries his machine gun, but doctors deem him fit to serve. Ivantsev said that of the 17 men he enlisted with, most are dead; the rest are like him, wounded.

Ivantsev’s commander, who would only provide his first name, Dmytro, said his exhausted and depleted company is working overtime to dig deeper trenches and build better locations from which to counter constant Russian artillery. “We have no people, nowhere to get them from,” Dmytro said.

At the start of the war, soldiers were rotated every two weeks for one week of rest, he said. But now his soldiers fight for a month, then get four days of rest.

“We are not made of steel,” said Ivantsev.

The average Ukrainian servicemen is in their 40s, according to Western officials. Commanders say the older the soldiers, the more they experience chronic illness, such as ulcers, hernias and pinched nerves.

Dima’s assault company recently received seven new recruits ages 55 to 58.

“What positions are they going to storm?” he asked sarcastically. “If he walks 4 kilometers with a backpack full of gear and weapons, he will fall down in the middle of the road.”


​​​​​​​
I think it is time to be honest about Ukraine's manpower needs. It's far more than just weapons and ordnance, it's the manpower to employ them. Realistically there are three ways the Russians get kicked out of Ukraine.
1. NATO boots on the ground and except for token forces those will be AMERICAN boots on the ground because the bulk of the larger European armies (Poland perhaps being the exception) are jokes - what little warfighting equipment they had they have already given.
2. Tactical nukes
3. Strategic nukes

Barring that it seems like more weapons to the Ukraine will end up pretty much like the $8 billion worth of weapons left with the Afghan government to fight the Taliban - the ones that belonged to the Taliban two weeks after our departure.

​​​​​​​My opinion.
Excargodog is online now  
Old 02-22-2024, 06:05 AM
  #2322  
Perennial Reserve
 
Excargodog's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,115
Default Meanwhile, the largest NATO economy in…

...Europe, passes schizophrenic motions...

Germany's Bundestag votes against Taurus missiles to Ukraine

Published 6 hours agoPublished 6 hours agolast updated 10 minutes agolast updated 10 minutes agoLawmakers have rejected an opposition motion to deliver cruise missiles to Ukraine, but backed another motion to send Kyiv "necessary long-range weapons systems."


https://p.dw.com/p/4ciza
https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-bundestag-votes-against-taurus-missiles-to-ukraine/live-68334762


​​​​​​​ 2 hours ago2 hours ago

Bundestag votes against sending Taurus to Ukraine

A majority of German lawmakers voted against an opposition motion to deliver Taurus cruise missiles to Ukraine.

The motion was put forward by the center-right Christian Democratic Union/Christian Social Union (CDU/CSU) bloc.

Only 182 parliamentarians voted in favor of it, while 480 were against. There were 5 abstentions.

In the run up to the vote, opposition leader Friedrich Merz had urged members of the ruling coalition to support the motion.

The ruling alliance, for their part, are putting forward their own joint motion calling for the delivery of "additional, necessary long-range weapons systems and ammunition" to Ukraine, without explicitly mentioning Taurus.

​​​​​​​
Excargodog is online now  
Old 02-22-2024, 06:06 AM
  #2323  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,830
Default

Originally Posted by Hubcapped
the FACTs are (if you have actually been following the war everyday, and not getting your highlights from right wing ru infested media) is that ukraine was holding right until we stopped giving them what they needed. Our right wing weak minded old men have disgraced our nation, and we will feel the consequences on the geopolitical battlefield for decades to come. Absolutely disgusting behavior, and for the first time in my adult life im ashamed of our government.

signed, actual person who risked their life to defend our constitution

85th, 63rd, 36th, 421st
harrumph and sawadee
Then it may have occurred to you said agreement is well on its way to becoming an obsolete rag. If you've spent any time with combat experienced vets, they typically don't brag or lolz about it to outsiders.
METO Guido is offline  
Old 02-22-2024, 06:20 AM
  #2324  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,830
Default

Originally Posted by ReluctantEskimo
Well, how about the horrors of occupation? For decades?

The sacrifices on the front lines happening in eastern Ukraine are allowing the rest of the country to live in the free air. That all changes when the tanks roll into Kyiv and the walls go back up.

We've already seen how the Russians operate as occupiers.
Well, stop them here, now, the tide of rising challenges to what was considered international norms may inch back. Cut & run, any hope for a lasting pause is gone.
METO Guido is offline  
Old 02-22-2024, 06:40 AM
  #2325  
Perennial Reserve
 
Excargodog's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,115
Default Another voice heard from…

https://www.afr.com/world/north-america/europe-must-stand-on-its-own-two-feet-on-defence-20240221-p5f6mw

Europe must stand on its own two feet on defence

Americans owe it to our European partners to be honest: we want allies, not client states, and our generosity in Ukraine is coming to an end.

JD Vance
The United States has provided a blanket of security to Europe for far too long. In the aftermath of the Cold War, European nations made deep and lasting cuts to their defence budgets.

Estimates suggest the continent would have spent an additional $US8.6 trillion ($13.2 trillion) on defence over 30 years had they maintained Cold War levels of military expenditure. As the American defence budget nears $US1 trillion per year, we ought to view the money Europe hasn’t spent on defence for what it really is: an implied tax on the American people to allow for the security of Europe.

Nothing in recent memory demonstrates this more clearly than the war in Ukraine. There is frankly no good reason that aid from the US should be needed. Europe is made up of many great nations with productive economies. They ought to have the capacity to handle the conflict, but over decades they have become far too weak. America has been asked to fill the void at tremendous expense to its own citizens.

Behind the price tag, this conflict has revealed the shocking weakness of the defence industrial base on both sides of the Atlantic. In Europe and America, fragmented defence industries make limited quantities of the most advanced weapons on Earth, but struggle to produce heavy weaponry at the speed and scale needed to win a major conflict.

For all the talk about who spends the most on defence by percentage of gross domestic product, Russia currently makes more than twice the amount of artillery shells each month than Europe and the US combined.


​​​​​​​
Germany is the most important economy in Europe, but it relies on imported energy and borrowed military strength.
These issues go beyond budgetary gimmicks and trilateral summit attendance. They demand tangible military capacity and industrial power. London is the banking centre of Europe, and perhaps the world. But wars are not fought with dollars, pounds and financial derivatives, they are fought with bullets.

Germany is the most important economy in Europe, but it relies on imported energy and borrowed military strength. US leaders across the spectrum support Europe and see the value of generations-old alliances. But as we watch European power atrophy under an American protectorate, it is reasonable to ask whether our support has made it easier for Europe to ignore its own security.

Which brings us to Ukraine. In the press, the burden-sharing debate is often framed in monetary terms: who spends what, and how much should each nation spend? But this conceals the real resource constraint. Wars are won with men and matériel.

Starting with matériel: we don’t make enough of it. At current production rates, it will take years to rebuild military stockpiles after this war – even if we stop sending critical defence stocks today, as we most certainly should. A firm commitment to Western re-industrialisation, to training skilled workers and rebuilding production capacity is needed.

Ukraine also needs more men. The average Ukrainian soldier is about 43 years old. Its former top general, Valery Zaluzhny, recently said he needed a mobilisation of fresh troops. Ukraine will only be able to continue at this rate for so long until Western troops are asked to answer the call.

We owe it to our European partners to be honest: Americans want allies in Europe, not client states, and our generosity in Ukraine is coming to an end. Europeans should regard the conclusion of the war there as an imperative. They must keep rebuilding their industrial and military capabilities. And Europe should consider how exactly it is going to live with Russia when the war in Ukraine is over.

In the US, justifications for the war often depend on a contemporary domino theory: unless we stop Putin in Ukraine, he won’t stop there. But the time has come for Europe to stand on its own feet. That doesn’t mean it has to stand alone, but it must not continue to use America as a crutch.

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​
Excargodog is online now  
Old 02-22-2024, 10:44 AM
  #2326  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: May 2023
Posts: 701
Default

Originally Posted by METO Guido
Well, stop them here, now, the tide of rising challenges to what was considered international norms may inch back. Cut & run, any hope for a lasting pause is gone.
I wonder if you sound smarter in your head than what you scribe here. Because it's damn-near gibberish to me.
ReluctantEskimo is offline  
Old 02-22-2024, 11:27 AM
  #2327  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Jun 2022
Posts: 1,437
Default

Originally Posted by METO Guido
Then it may have occurred to you said agreement is well on its way to becoming an obsolete rag. If you've spent any time with combat experienced vets, they typically don't brag or lolz about it to outsiders.
ive never been to combat, never claimed to. I also dont claim to understand the groundwar. My point was that i have served in units whose job it was to kill sh1t and i fully admit im no ground pounder expert. And certainly someone who spent their military career in the support units wont either. To claim otherwise is hubris and dishonorable.

I did notice that none of the self professed pattons here seem to be able to explain why ukraine was holding(and in some cases advancing) when we were giving them what they needed……

suckers for putins propaganda. Period
Hubcapped is offline  
Old 02-22-2024, 11:29 AM
  #2328  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Jun 2022
Posts: 1,437
Default

Originally Posted by ReluctantEskimo
I wonder if you sound smarter in your head than what you scribe here. Because it's damn-near gibberish to me.
i tried to tell him nicely and he got butthurt awhile back. Trying a little too hard to sound like an “intellectual” imo
Hubcapped is offline  
Old 02-22-2024, 01:03 PM
  #2329  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,830
Default

Originally Posted by Hubcapped
i tried to tell him nicely and he got butthurt awhile back. Trying a little too hard to sound like an “intellectual” imo
Cut & run now, prospects for a near term DMZ like accord disappear quickly as the sacrifice of so many thousand young souls. I’m a realist. One that has little patience with heartless posers or superpilots that can’t appreciate where advanced weapon systems come from, who bought them or for what constitutional purpose. Doesn’t require a phd to grasp the preamble. Give it another shot pigeon keepers and meto will do his best to dumb it down for ya.
METO Guido is offline  
Old 02-22-2024, 05:15 PM
  #2330  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Jun 2022
Posts: 1,437
Default

Originally Posted by METO Guido
Cut & run now, prospects for a near term DMZ like accord disappear quickly as the sacrifice of so many thousand young souls. I’m a realist. One that has little patience with heartless posers or superpilots that can’t appreciate where advanced weapon systems come from, who bought them or for what constitutional purpose. Doesn’t require a phd to grasp the preamble. Give it another shot pigeon keepers and meto will do his best to dumb it down for ya.
the ridiculous premise of yours relies on ukraine getting steamrolled………maybe they should have a say?

As to your other point, you do realize we were giving them our old equipment and buying ourselves new stuff right?

Youve never adequately answered how to stop russia from continuing its slow generational long march through the baltic states…..still waiting on that

Last edited by Hubcapped; 02-22-2024 at 05:57 PM.
Hubcapped is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Boeing Aviator
United
18
03-22-2022 11:04 AM
decrabbitz
FedEx
8
09-18-2021 10:22 PM
HerkDriver
Cargo
5
09-18-2007 01:56 PM
DiamondZ
Cargo
16
03-22-2007 10:38 AM
RockBottom
Hangar Talk
0
08-22-2006 07:35 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



Your Privacy Choices