Excargodog

Explain to me the logistics and manpower of him rolling to the Atlantic? He's ten years into this and isn't 20% of the way through Ukraine yet, and like Ukraine, he is getting weaker (and older) every day.
But really, just answer the question: how do you push the Russians out? US boots on the ground? (Not going to happen. Damn sure not going to happen in an election year? Tactical nukes? Strategic nukes? Give me a plan that makes sense, because doing what we have been doing is getting politically and logistically difficult and there are other threats - like Iran and China.

Excargodog

We aren't standing down, we never stood up. If the only three possibilities for the Ukraine winning the war are "ridiculous" then their losing is inevitable. Western Europe proved in Bosnia that all of them couldn't stand up to the Serbian Army without the US leading the way. And in the ensuing thirty years they let the militaries they had then atrophy.

in Afghanistan we spent twenty years and $2 trillion and put boots on the ground and the Taliban still runs the place. You think another $60 billion will turn the tide in Ukraine? Silly you.

ReluctantEskimo

You still didn't answer the question.

HAHAHAHA

Where does the Russian Army stop??? Sell me on why abandoning Ukraine is good for the world. And tell me why the Ukrainians futures' would be so much better under Russian occupation than fighting a stalemate?

Hubcapped

he literally never answers the questions dude…..ever. If he knows it doesn’t fit his narrative, or that he may be in error, he lacks the integrity to be honest and own it. That is the behavior you will deal with if you continue.

Excargodog

Pretty much because they are stupid questions. The Russian Army will stop when the benefits of stopping exceed the benefits of continuing to go forward. That's pretty much how all wars stop, even if there is no formal peace (see South Korea). Nobody is "abandoning" the Ukraine because it wasn't our possession to begin with. Please show me one Senate ratified treaty indicating we are obligated to defend it. Nobody said the Ukrainians future woukd be better - far less "so much better" under Russian occupation, but it isn't a stalemate even now. The disparity in resources and personnel means that every Ukrainian loss is that much greater percentage of their remaining resources and personnel than it is of Russias. Both sides are getting hurt but if the war isn't stopped eventually Ukraine loses and the longer this goes on the worse it is for both sides.

But you still haven't answered my question. How far do we go in playing world policemen? Because our NATO allies aren't going to hack it. They wouldn't intervene in Yugoslavia during the genocides that occurred during its breakup until they could convince us to lead the charge.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-...mbs-yugoslavia

And that was back thirty years ago before our NATO allies had taken the thirty years of "peace dividends" that have pretty much destroyed such conventional military forces as they once had.

So your options consist of
a. Doing what isn't working on the apparent assumption that hope will triumph over experience.
b. US boots on the ground as in Bosnia and Kosovo.
c. Tactical nukes.
d. Strategic nukes.

And since you are ruling out b, c, and d, as unthinkable, perhaps it's you who are "abandoning" Ukraine.

MaxQ

That is a key element that many choose to ignore.
Ukraine was winning their war until just very recently. The loud voices in the USA, and the rising Right Wing parties in Europe, have combined to encourage Russia to "hang in there" until support for Ukraine is withdrawn. Why would Putin negotiate when he senses that he will no longer be opposed by an equipted military and economically supported Ukraine? Answer: he won't. He would only make demands.
Partnered with this is the damage it does to Ukraini moral. They are doing ALL of the fighting and dying. At least some are absolutely outraged that aid is being denied because someone thinks other allies should pay more. There is also wonderment that politicians would actually use non-related problems to the war to deny weapons while people are dying. Their combination of rage and disgust is palpable.

Another part of this unfolding tragedy is that the Russia economy and infrastructure is a total mess. Due to increasing amounts of resources being diverted to the war, it just keeps getting worse. Even apartments in Moscow are enduring periods without heat this winter. I suspect that if that is occuring in Moscow, it must be much more widespread in more isolated areas.

China has published a map showing disputed Russian Federation territory as part of China, with a Chinese name.
I have been anecdotally told that some of the eastern(Pacific coast) import business of stolen vehicles has been taken over from the Russian crime groups by Chinese criminal groups. This has two-fold significance. Since Russia is run by the national police (the FSB) allied with their crime partners (the Vory), this means that they are not strong enough to fend off the Chinese on their own land. My suspicin is that Xi is quite happy to let Chinese criminals gnaw away at Russian society and its economy by use of modern day privateers.
This low grade sparring between Russia and China should remind us that Putin has his own domestic problems that he isn't addressing because we have signaled that USA support for Ukraine might collapse.
If he knew that USA support for Ukraine was firm Putin would know that he doesn't have the time or resources to achieve his goals without further domestic collapse.

Putin's short term goal is the re-colonization of Ukraine. As part of his ideological war with West, he has long term goals of :
1. Underming/weakening NATO
2. Weakening/breaking up the EU
3. Weakening the political and fraternal ties between the USA and Europe. Possibly to the point of fracture.
4. Weakening of democracy as a philosophy of governing.

The USA and European Right Wing voices I mentioned earlier are all providing the political capital to various politicians/policy makers who are actively working to achieve Putin's goals.
These voices, from an active measure standpoint, can be labeled 'useful idiots'. Those who are in a position to directly influence support are either "unwitting assets" or "witting assets" of Russian activity.
Useful idiots and unwitting assets are established fact and easily identified. There is circumstantial evidence (available to the general public, it may be more specific than circumstatial to investigative agencies)
that the USA, France, and Hungary have poltical players who are witting assets.


With the occurance of th UK's Brexit, the attitudes of the Right in both the USA and Europe, and a general upswing of authoritarian nationalism, Russia has been wildly successful in molding millions to being sympathetic to their world views, false historical record, and overall long term self-serving Russia goals.

What are viewed as online opinions have the power to shape political policies. We should think about what we are doing.

Excargodog

https://www.realcleardefense.com/art...o_1012522.html

An excerpt:

ReluctantEskimo

How disingenuous. What's wrong with a stalemate until Russia collapses? You keep speaking in extreme cases... Total victory or total abstention. There is a middle way.

Keeping the Ukrainians in fight until we bleed Russia dry.

Total victory requires counter attacking within the borders a nuclear power. That's just not possible at this juncture. So that means their only play is attacking fortified positions within occupied Ukraine.

They're doing their best to balance the responses.

The fact that you are willing to let Russia "stop when they're tired" tells me everything I need to know about your mindset. Weak.

Lowslung

I believe the preferred term around here is feckless.

TransWorld

Russia wants to take over former lands. They specifically want Alaska.