MaxQ

The Helsinki Accords are a classic example of the consequences of long gestational periods.

The USSR (in actuality Russia) lost their control of the "Eastern Block" largely due to the loss of legitimacy, and subsequently the authority, of the ruling Party. Starting with Poland in 1989, they all went to some sort of multi-party democracy in a very short period of time.

The same occurred with the breakup of the USSR. After the collapse of the Communist Party (and the defeat of the attempted coup), the 15 Republics went their own way and suddenly Russia, the First amongst Equals, was no longer either a multi country Empire, or a single party dictatorship.

None of this could have happened had the ruling Party maintained it's legitimacy. After it had lost that, it was just a matter of time.
What contributed to this loss of legitimacy?
First, a long history of dissidents and dissent. The intelligensia of Poland, Czechoslovakia, USSR (Russia, Ukraine, Białoruś, et al). (Michnik, Havel, Sakharov to name a few).
Second, the tools available to the voices of dissent: Western support and The Helsinki Accords are two prominent ones.
The Helsinki Accords gave opponents of the dictatorial rule a never ending source of both self-defense and a manner of illuminating the Party's hypocrisy. It was a steady drumbeat, and like water on stone it had it's effectiveness.

The fall of the Russian controlled USSR single Party rule gave the Baltics their political freedom. The Helsinki Accords contributed more to those events than what was and was not diplomatically recognized.
The comments you cite probably accurately reflected the emotions of the time. Those views didn't appreciate the significance of what was agreed upon.
Apparently, neither did the Russians.

Hubcapped

lol nice try pigeon, the helsinki
accords were developed to avoid direct confrontation nor did we assess that we could win. Not the same. Keep spamming vlad


how is Europe’s support going? Did they falter in 22?

MaxQ

Regarding Russian propaganda, some tidbits from notes I have accumulated.

1. Active measures are designed to weaken one's designated enemy.

2. Disinformation is the art of using false or misleading information and injecting it, or getting it credited by, legitimate and credible sources.

3. Fake news can persist throughout history and has the ability to change both minds and THE PERCEPTION of REALITY.

4. Russian intelligence takes finely crafted fake news and deploys them in the information domain using a myriad of injection systems: Facebook, twitter, bloggers, and conspiracy theory websites.
Russia was at least 10 years ahead of the USA in appreciating the power of the internet and social media. This is far beyond traditional propaganda and as of yet there is no apparent effective defense of such attacks.
This system disperses ideological products from those such as Dugin,Ilyin,&Surkov and other assets such as Trump, Bannon and Carlson.

5. Will leave a quote from a Russian training handbook formerly called "reflexive control" that has been changed to "perception management".
"....the practice of predetermining an adversary's decision in Russia's favor. by altering key factor's in the adversary's perception of the world."

From reading this board, I would say they are pretty damn good at it.

T1000

I 100% agree with the “2 garbage self serving parties”! Why can’t we actually fix problems at home and abroad at the same time?…answer is self serving greed.

Hubcapped

it’s actually scary to me. We used to be a system that disagreed on primarily just policy. Now since nixon picked up the baptists, we injected ideology. Which to extremist weak humans, means an “at all costs” approach. Right wing extremism, naturally led to the left wing extremism, and now people are elected for how much vitriol they can spit, and not how they can bring people together. 2 factors exacerbated this imho.(careful this now gets subjective), with the election of a black man, and the subsequent election of a man who has no regard for compromise nor decorum, we are stuck. I don’t personally see a way out of this.

wrt ukraine: we have given them enough to meet the initial objective of breaking Russia. Despite what some post, their economy is objectively in free fall, and the backbone of their armed forces has been neutralized. Even if the right wing has succumbed to Russian propaganda, Europe has been galvanized. In essence I believe we have won. (Albeit not from a Ukrainian perspective as they have shed blood to meet our objectives, but not theirs in the regaining of lost territory and lost civilians). Lots of words, but when a pigeon continuously poops on the board, here we are. Met my quota for the day. Tootles

Excargodog

Rand Paul: Withdraw Ukraine money if you want to avoid shutdown

BY ALEXANDER BOLTON - 09/28/23 6:23 PM ET
SHARETWEETGreg Nash
Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) arrives to the Capitol for a procedural vote on Tuesday, September 26, 2023.Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) reiterated his threat Thursday to hold up a Senate government funding bill because it includes more than $6 billion in funding for Ukraine.

Paul wrote on X, the social media platform formerly known as Twitter, that he would only allow a vote on the spending stopgap before the Sept. 30 deadline for funding government if Senate leaders pull out the money for Ukraine.

“To avoid a government shutdown, I will consent to an expedited vote on a clean CR without Ukraine aid on it. If leadership insists on funding another country’s government at the expense of our own government, all blame rests with their intransigence,” he wrote.

So far, neither Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) nor Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) have signaled any willingness to pull the Ukraine money out of the bill.

“I’m comfortable with the way we put together the Senate bill,” McConnell told reporters Wednesday.

Anticipating Paul’s objections to speeding up the floor debate, leaders have told rank-and-file senators to expect to vote through Sunday to get the temporary funding measure through the Senate. It would fund the government until Nov. 17.

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/...void-shutdown/

Excargodog

Galvanized??? 🤣😂🤣

​​​​​​​Europe is as feckless as ever.

ReluctantEskimo

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/09/63698...nd-republicans

Rand Paul is compromised by the Russians.

https://youtu.be/BTdqIlfp8XE?si=e03uF3coBiKTZyXs

METO Guido

Obviously. How dare a Sen. admit raking up 5T, spending 7, will sink us regardless.

ReluctantEskimo

Being fiscally responsible only when it benefits you isn't being fiscally responsible.

Rand Paul has a long history of being wined and dined by Moscow. McCain was wise to his unpatriotic ways.

Republicans have fallen far from the tree.