Excargodog

Actually I believe that Rick’s opinions are very close to that of the Washington DC establishment - at least the military establishment . The US military establishment believes this is bleeding Russia of materiel and manpower and will impoverish the Russian military for at least a decade. None of the military professionals ever thought the Ukrainians had a chance to actually “win” against Russia. But with a PR-wise former standup comedian at the helm, and the apparent early “victories” as the Russians retreated/redeployed from their initial massively overextended advancement, and a willingness to fight to the last Ukrainian they’ve kept this going for over 500 days now pretending the brave Ukrainians would win if they just kept emptying the western stockpiles of obsolete, obsolescent, and poorly maintained ordnance.

I mean we sent them Hawk missiles, for crying out loud. That went operational with the US Army in 1959 and was phased out even by the Marines (who largely get Army hand-me downs) over 20 years ago and being stored only because it was cheaper to store them in unused bunkers than to demil them. They found that out with the old Nikes, the immediate less mobile predecessor to the Hawk when they tried to use them for hypersonic rocket sled testing at White Sands and found out the manufacturer (who had built them to performance specs, not to a specific chemical formula) had put beryllium thrust enhancers in the fuel. Can you imagine the EPA allowing those to be fired anywhere in the US today?

I said early on that the Ukrainians were going to wind up feeling betrayed by individuals who are more than willing to fight to the last Ukrainian while doing little but dump obsolete ordnance on them. Those F-16s the Netherlands are wanting to give? They are Aand B models from the 70s and early 80s- which they had over 200 of during the Cold War. They’ve been selling those off for years, the last to Jordan for €3.4 million each in 2010.

https://english.rekenkamer.nl/topics...n-to-the-f-16s

Meanwhile:

Excargodog

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-may-be-needed

Some excerpts:

Excargodog

https://www.eurointegration.com.ua/eng/news/2023/08/15/7167610/

As I said, I think there’s a very high likelihood the Ukraine emerges from this feeling betrayed…

T1000

No doubt! And if the “BoomTard” business “people” and politicians didn’t send all our manufacturing overseas for a quick buck we might be in a better position as a world power. The average US citizen should also feel betrayed. Instead we got fleeced and have our tax money laundered in overseas crap holes.

rickair7777

I don't see how they can get everything they want.

Excargodog

Nope. Nor is even keeping what they now have guaranteed:


https://www.rferl.org/a/kupyansk-eva.../32548697.html



This has become a war of attrition which seldom favors the smaller country.

rickair7777

The average Ukrainian is far more motivated than the average Russian... hearts and minds matter. Vietnam was a war of attrition too. They didn't actually beat us, we just got tired of it and left. Easier for a US administration to do that since they change every 4-8 years and aren't necessarily politically obligated to finish what the last guy started.

rickair7777

My premise was never that UA could easily prevail. It was that realistically we needed to make this very hard for RU to prevail so that they would be seriously discouraged from doing it again any time soon. I think we've done that, and without boots on ground which would have been very problematic on several counts.

This isn't as simple as pro-Ukraine vs. pro-Russia, at least not for NATO and the west.

Hubcapped

pretty nebulous statement

Excargodog

Still feckless,
Still feckless,after all these years…



https://www.politico.eu/article/germ...nato-spending/