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Old 07-19-2023, 12:07 PM
  #1001  
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Originally Posted by METO Guido
The dead don’t harvest crops. They do leave a lasting legacy of hate driven generations to come. Tick, tock. How is an American CIC who needs assistant living care supposed to hammer out a peace accord? ‘We’ didn’t ‘let’ Russia do anything. Except have our much maligned boot up their arse for 80 years.
you didnt answer the question.
yes or no?
should we have let russia take ukraines wheat fields and deep water port.
By not reacting and not giving ukraine arms is “letting” them, so please answer the question succinctly
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Old 07-19-2023, 01:06 PM
  #1002  
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Originally Posted by Hubcapped
you didnt answer the question.
yes or no?
should we have let russia take ukraines wheat fields and deep water port.
By not reacting and not giving ukraine arms is “letting” them, so please answer the question succinctly
WHAT??? No change here. Time is short. The Spring, Summer, soon Fall offensive needs transition to ceasefire terms before the flowing billions bleed uncle stupid dry. The covenant says provide for the common defense. Not whistle Dixie in a Gettysburg of Slavic killing fields.
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Old 07-19-2023, 02:57 PM
  #1003  
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Originally Posted by METO Guido
WHAT??? No change here. Time is short. The Spring, Summer, soon Fall offensive needs transition to ceasefire terms before the flowing billions bleed uncle stupid dry. The covenant says provide for the common defense. Not whistle Dixie in a Gettysburg of Slavic killing fields.
I agree that a cease fire and renegotiation of territory is best at this point. IMHO The US and EU have made their point that the cost is not worth the reward for any major nation that has aspirations of physical conquest.

you still kind of danced around a bit, so let me ask you a direct question. Should the US not have gotten involved at all?
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Old 07-19-2023, 04:09 PM
  #1004  
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Originally Posted by Hubcapped
I agree that a cease fire and renegotiation of territory is best at this point. IMHO The US and EU have made their point that the cost is not worth the reward for any major nation that has aspirations of physical conquest.

you still kind of danced around a bit, so let me ask you a direct question. Should the US not have gotten involved at all?
Good question. Yes & no. It’s our job to put this fire out. Many more on the way. We do NOT have the luxury of more time or gross navigation error. This is edgy business. Doesn’t anyone want to survive until retirement anymore? The water’s fine
https://youtu.be/kTVQ4czdUn0
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Old 07-19-2023, 06:16 PM
  #1005  
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Some excerpts:

Frustration with the Biden Administration is beginning to set in for Ukrainian Commander-in-Chief General Valerii Zaluzhnyi, and understandably so.

It is increasingly difficult for the general to ‘never look a gift horse in the mouth’ as critical weapon systems and munitions produced in the United States – namely ATACMS and F-16s – he deems necessary to prosecute the war against Russia are denied to him. Especially while Russian threats including missile/drone launch sites, troop and equipment staging areas awaiting movement to battlefields in Ukraine, and headquarters that command and control Russian military operations reside on the opposite side of the border in US imposed sanctuary.

These legitimate military targets are “off limits” and remain out of reach due primarily due to constraints placed upon Ukraine by the Biden Administration and modifications secretly made to US provided weapon systems – HIMARS, so they “could not be used to fire long-range missiles into Russia … a precaution the Biden administration says is necessary to reduce the risk of a wider war with Moscow.” This point was made clear by John Kirby on 5 June when he told reporters, “We don’t encourage, we don’t enable and we don’t support strikes or attacks inside Russia.”
But that was then. This is now.

17 months have passed, and the war still rages on. The Kremlin’s cruise missiles, drones, and artillery continue to rain down upon Ukrainian population centers, killing and maiming innocent civilians, while Ukrainian soldiers negotiate Russian minefields and engage in close-quarter combat in trenches.

Meanwhile, the Ukrainian counteroffensive is progressing considerably slower than many anticipated. According to a New York Times article, “In the first two weeks of Ukraine’s grueling counteroffensive, as much as 20 percent of the weaponry it sent to the battlefield was damaged or destroyed … The toll includes some of the formidable Western fighting machines — tanks and armored personnel carriers — the Ukrainians were counting on to beat back the Russians.”

Ukraine’s military can ill afford to sustain that loss rate or to become bogged down and decisively engaged. They are built for maneuver warfare. They have finite resources and must choose battles wisely. But extensive defensive belts, seeded with anti-tank and anti-personnel mines are slowing the advance rate and inflicting casualties higher than expected. The time required to build capacity and train the Ukrainian military afforded Russia time to prepare their defensive positions making clearing minefields a priority effort.

De-mining is another unanticipated requirement by Washington that awaits a solution – and provides yet more time for Russia to seed and reseed minefields anew as the war approaches its 18th month.

Ukraine is beginning to grow weary of the US dictating terms of how and where they can fight the Russians. We saw this in Zelensky’s body language at the NATO Summit in Vilnius, and again in his commanding general’s comments in a recent Washington Post article, “This is our problem, and it is up to us to decide how to kill this enemy. It is possible and necessary to kill on his territory in a war. If our partners are afraid to use their weapons, we will kill with our own.”

The US has its own experience with the difficulty of fighting a war while allowing the enemy safe havens. It doesn’t generally work well. That is a valid point. Even so, the risk of Russian escalation - even to nuclear weapons - is also a valid concern. But it appears that some people in the Ukraine are becoming convinced that America is perfectly willing to keep this fight going to the last Ukrainian while many in Washington are slow rolling weapons in - perhaps in the hope that the Ukrainians will abandon their refusal to negotiate until Russia is driven out of the Ukraine - conceivably including occupied Crimea,

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Old 07-19-2023, 06:20 PM
  #1006  
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Originally Posted by METO Guido
Good question. Yes & no. It’s our job to put this fire out. Many more on the way. We do NOT have the luxury of more time or gross navigation error. This is edgy business. Doesn’t anyone want to survive until retirement anymore? The water’s fine
https://youtu.be/kTVQ4czdUn0
all valid points imo
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Old 07-20-2023, 06:53 AM
  #1007  
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Default Yet another voice heard from…

and an increasing European perspective…



https://www.politico.eu/article/ben-cohen-ukraine-war-russia-blames-america-ben-and-jerrys/
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Old 07-20-2023, 08:17 AM
  #1008  
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https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2023/07/19/why-ukraines-counter-offensive-is-failing/


Some excerpts:

The same month that Austin was claiming Ukraine had “a very good chance” to defeat Russia in Kyiv’s spring offensive, I wrote that embracing the concept “that Russia is going to lose the war could leave the West to be caught off guard if the Ukrainian offensive fails to materially degrade Russian positions.” One month before the start of the offensive, I explained the very practical reasons why the Ukrainian attack would almost certainly fail to achieve even modest gains.

To succeed in its operation to cut the Russian land bridge to Crimea, I wrotethat Ukrainian troops would have to attack through multiple belts of elaborate Russian defenses “with limited offensive air power, limited air defense, insufficient quantities of artillery shells, and a force that is equipped with a hodgepodge of modern and antiquated armor — staffed by a mix of conscripts with no combat experience and some officers and men with basic training by NATO instructors.”

All of those factors have now predictably conspired to blunt Kyiv’s offensive, failing after six weeks of effort to even penetrate the first belt of the main Russian defensive lines.
It’s not that Zelensky’s forces are “going slowly” forward, it’s that they aren’t attaining any of their initial tactical objectives on the way to the Azov coast and it’s precisely because the combat fundamentals necessary to win are largely (and in some cases entirely) absent. They flatly don’t have the human resources or physical infrastructure necessary to succeed.

Now, it is always possible that Russia could suffer sudden political collapse, such as what happened in 1917, and Ukraine could still emerge successful. That, however, is extremely unlikely and Kyiv would be unwise to base their future hopes upon such an event.

To continue trying will tragically result in yet more UAF troops being killed, Ukrainian cities destroyed, and push prospects for peace ever further away.
I understand everyone wants Ukraine to win and Russia to lose. But continuing to persist in pursuing that aspiration won’t change the ground truth realities. The course of action that holds out the best hope for Zelensky to emerge from this war with Ukraine retaining its political viability is to agree to a ceasefire so that negotiations can begin.

Even that’s not a guarantee of success, but the longer Ukraine delays in seeking such an outcome, the greater the chances that Russia continues building strength to launch an offensive of its own this summer or fall, possibly capturing even Kharkiv or Odessa. In other words, a stalemate might not be the worst-case scenario for Kyiv. Now is the time to develop the diplomatic track to end the war.

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Old 07-20-2023, 10:15 AM
  #1009  
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https://news.usni.org/2023/07/19/russia-says-all-ships-in-the-black-sea-heading-to-ukraine-are-potential-carriers-of-military-cargo


Russia has laid sea mines in the Black Sea that could interfere with Ukrainian grain exports, the White House announced Wednesday.



The new mines could be used to justify future attacks against civilian ships and blame Ukraine, the National Security Council said in a statement to USNI News.

“In addition to this coordinated effort in the Black Sea, we have already observed that Russia targeted Ukraine’s grain export ports in Odesa with missiles and drones on July 18 and 19, resulting in the destruction of agricultural infrastructure and 60,000 tons of grain,” reads the statement.

Two days after Russia pulled out of an agreement for Ukraine to ship grain through the Black Sea, the Kremlin declared all cargo ships traveling to Ukrainian ports as potentially carrying military cargo in support of Kyiv.

“ In connection with the cessation of the functioning of the Black Sea Grain Initiative and the сlosing of the maritime humanitarian corridor, from 00.00 Moscow time on 20 July 2023, all vessels sailing in the waters of the Black Sea to Ukrainian ports will be regarded as potential carriers of military cargo,” reads a message the MoD issued on the social messaging platform Telegram.
“Accordingly, the countries of such vessels will be considered to be involved in the Ukrainian conflict on the side of the Kyiv regime.”

The National Security Council said in the statement that it believes Russia may target the civilian ships in future attacks in addition to recent bombing in Odessa that hit grain supplies.

Under international law, the declaration allows Russian forces to board and search ships suspected of transporting arms, James Kraska, a maritime law expert and one of the author of the Newport Manual of the Law of Naval Warfare, told USNI News on Wednesday.

“Russia has a right to do that under the law of visit and search,” he said.
“They’re entitled to visit ships and board them to see if there are any weapons on board.”

However, if the ships are Ukrainian-flagged, they can be captured as a war prize.

“It doesn’t make them targets,” Kraska said.

As part of the grain deal brokered by Turkey and United Nations, which expired when Russia pulled out Monday, Moscow had the right to inspect ships heading to Ukraine, said Sal Mercogliano, an associate professor at Campbell University.

The concern is if Russia decides to attack ships going to or from Ukraine, Mercogliano said.

“What you’re seeing is an escalation on the Black Sea, and the fear is that if Russia hits ships sailing to Ukraine, what is to prevent Ukraine from hitting ships sailing from Russia?” he said. “And then you have a full-fledged commerce war between Ukraine and Russia targeting largely neutral third world nation ships, sailing carrying food, fuel and fertilizer.”

There is a chance that there could be armed escorts to protect merchant ships, but the question is who would provide them, Mercogliano said. Turkey closed the Bosphorus Strait to any warships from non-Black Sea from entering the Black Sea.
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Old 07-20-2023, 10:25 AM
  #1010  
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Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment, July 19, 2023

Jul 19, 2023 - Press ISWRussian forces launched an extensive missile and drone attack against port and grain infrastructure in southern Ukraine on July 19 likely to further emphasize Russia’s objections to the renewal of the Black Sea grain deal and hinder Ukraine’s ability to export grain. The Ukrainian General Staff reported that Russian forces conducted strikes using 16 Kalibr sea-based cruise missiles, eight Kh-22 anti-ship missiles, six Onyx cruise missiles, one Kh-59 guided air missile, and 32 Iranian-made Shahed drones. Ukrainian military officials reported that Russian forces predominantly targeted civilian and military infrastructure in Odesa Oblast with Kh-22 and Onyx missiles and that Ukrainian forces shot down 37 air targets including 13 Kalibrs, one Kh-59 missile, and 23 Shaheds. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky stated that Russian forces deliberately targeted the infrastructure necessary for executing the Black Sea grain deal in Odesa, Zhytomyr, and other oblasts. The Ukrainian Southern Operational Command reported that Russian forces struck grain and oil terminals and damaged tanks and loading equipment. Ukrainian Minister of Agrarian Policy and Food Mykola Solskyi reported that Russian strikes destroyed 60,000 tons of grain in the Chornomorsk port in Odesa Oblast on the night of July 19. The Southern Operational Command added that Russian strikes also targeted coastal areas in Mykolaiv Oblast and some infrastructure in Kherson City. Spokesperson of the Ukrainian Southern Operational Command Captain of the First Rank Nataliya Humenyuk stated that the Russian July 19 strikes “happened virtually simultaneously,” and that Russian forces likely attempted to overwhelm the Ukrainian air defense systems. Ukrainian Air Forces Spokesperson Colonel Yuriy Ihnat stated that this attack was the most intense missile and drone attack on Odesa Oblast since the start of the full-scale invasion in February 2022.
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