Unluckiest Generation
07-22-2020, 08:56 AM
#331
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 3,818
Ok, now I see where you're coming from. To me this is all semantics right? Whether the war was fought because they seceded or they seceded because the Southern states wanted to assert their authority over the federal government. So they could then abolish federal laws they didn't support, especially laws interfering with the South's right to keep slaves and take them wherever they wished. The bottom line was IF it wasn't for slavery, trying to preserve slavery, trying to expand slavery westward...there would have been no votes to secede and no civil war. Everything else is just a bs exercise in semantics.
The North were the aggressors for not allowing the Southern states to leave peacefully.
07-22-2020, 09:41 AM
#332
Speed Verified
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,144
IRT the thread title though, every generation has trials and tribulations. Its called life. Different events and even greater, varying levels of struggle and sacrifice. Personally, I don't feel unlucky. This is just another hurdle to get over. Fun discussion though. Have a great day everybody.
07-22-2020, 10:45 AM
#333
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 762
Ok, now I see where you're coming from. To me this is all semantics right? Whether the war was fought because they seceded or they seceded because the Southern states wanted to assert their authority over the federal government. So they could then abolish federal laws they didn't support, especially laws interfering with the South's right to keep slaves and take them wherever they wished. The bottom line was IF it wasn't for slavery, trying to preserve slavery, trying to expand slavery westward...there would have been no votes to secede and no civil war. Everything else is just a bs exercise in semantics.
Edit: It is ironic that so many people in this thread said “If you don’t like it leave”, that’s exactly what the confederate states did, only problem was Lincoln would not allow them to leave. They could have attempted a hostile take over of the government, but they decided to leave peacefully, the Union decided they could not.
South Carolina had a constitutional right to leave the Union. Lincoln violated that right, among the many constitutional rights that he violated of the American people.
Last edited by NE_Pilot; 07-22-2020 at 11:06 AM.
07-22-2020, 01:42 PM
#334
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 2,594
Love the history talk, but, yeah, semantics, words do mean things. North v. South is the commonly used phrase; but really it was the Federal gov't displeasing the State governments. Maine wasn't ordering or legislating things to change Virginia. Plus, once the war broke out it was a war between the United States of America and the Confederate States of America. You can't really call Kansas "the North" and Texas "the South."
IRT the thread title though, every generation has trials and tribulations. Its called life. Different events and even greater, varying levels of struggle and sacrifice. Personally, I don't feel unlucky. This is just another hurdle to get over. Fun discussion though. Have a great day everybody.
IRT the thread title though, every generation has trials and tribulations. Its called life. Different events and even greater, varying levels of struggle and sacrifice. Personally, I don't feel unlucky. This is just another hurdle to get over. Fun discussion though. Have a great day everybody.
07-22-2020, 04:16 PM
#335
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,892
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
This is the goal. A Union, not 50 mini-me's. Or 330,000,000.
This is the goal. A Union, not 50 mini-me's. Or 330,000,000.
07-22-2020, 06:09 PM
#336
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2020
Posts: 59
Even if succession is justified by lack of mention in the Constitution, the CSA was properly conquered and annexed. The US conquered territory from Mexico and Spain as well. Nothing in the Constitution prohibits the United States from doing so.
07-22-2020, 06:10 PM
#337
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2018
Posts: 317
Its not semantics, the Union could have honored the votes of those people and allowed the States to leave. There would have been no war. The Union did not go after the Confederate states because of slavery, they fought to prevent them from leaving the Union.
Edit: It is ironic that so many people in this thread said “If you don’t like it leave”, that’s exactly what the confederate states did, only problem was Lincoln would not allow them to leave. They could have attempted a hostile take over of the government, but they decided to leave peacefully, the Union decided they could not.
South Carolina had a constitutional right to leave the Union. Lincoln violated that right, among the many constitutional rights that he violated of the American people.
Edit: It is ironic that so many people in this thread said “If you don’t like it leave”, that’s exactly what the confederate states did, only problem was Lincoln would not allow them to leave. They could have attempted a hostile take over of the government, but they decided to leave peacefully, the Union decided they could not.
South Carolina had a constitutional right to leave the Union. Lincoln violated that right, among the many constitutional rights that he violated of the American people.
Although Constitutional principle and secession were the proximate cause of conflict, they were not the ultimate cause of the War. To identify that ultimate cause, you must examine the words of those who led the secessionist movement. Like I said, read their speeches. The South’s defense of the very real institution of slavery and of the economy, society, culture, and civilization built upon slavery was the indispensable factor that led to war. That led the south to seize federal property within their borders, which cause Federal troops to take action. But again the root cause was slavery.
...and just curious, where does the Constitution give the states the right to secede?
07-22-2020, 06:17 PM
#338
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 762
Although Constitutional principle and secession were the proximate cause of conflict, they were not the ultimate cause of the War. To identify that ultimate cause, you must examine the words of those who led the secessionist movement. Like I said, read their speeches. The South’s defense of the very real institution of slavery and of the economy, society, culture, and civilization built upon slavery was the indispensable factor that led to war. That led the south to seize federal property within their borders, which cause Federal troops to take action. But again the root cause was slavery.
...and just curious, where does the Constitution give the states the right to secede?
...and just curious, where does the Constitution give the states the right to secede?
You continue to conflate secession with the war. South Carolina seceded, had Lincoln not attempted to force those states back into the Union, there would have been no war. Lincoln did not send troops to free slaves, he sent troops to force the Confederate states back into the Union.
07-22-2020, 06:22 PM
#340
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 762
”The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”
Secession is not delegated to the US nor is it prohibited by the Constitution, therefore it is reserved to the States or the people.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
