GoJet question
08-23-2008, 04:37 PM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 483
It seems rather interesting that most of the arguments that the folks at TSA have with Go Jet are very close to being the same arguments that American Eagle had with TSA.
American Eagles contract with AMR was basically we don’t strike and AMR doesn’t farm out our flying.
As some one else posted on a previous thread, when AMR bought TWA Eagle grieved TSA continuing to do the feed work. We even had the “No alter Eagle airlines” stickers. I guess yours just say “No alter Ego airlines” . hummm.
Lets see here TSA is flying routs that we could have flown in the same equipment. Seems to make you an alter ego airline in my book. Go Jet is flying bigger equipment. 70 seat vs 50.
TSA pay scale is less than American Eagles, so there for they are undercutting not only there fellow ALPA airline, but lowering the bar for all regional airline pilots. No real moral high ground there.
Oh and lets not forget the whole deal in Miami. You lease American Eagle airplanes, get paid less than American Eagle pilots, and then start taking flying away from us in Miami an American Eagle base. Oh then you defend the action saying it’s the companies fault.
If you work for TSA and are going to tell people to stand up and not go work for Go Jet. I want to know what you were doing when you were screwing your fellow ALPA airline.
Did you call in Sick for Miami flying?
Express your outrage to your union rep?
Talk to your chief pilot?
Did you do anything?
American Eagles contract with AMR was basically we don’t strike and AMR doesn’t farm out our flying.
As some one else posted on a previous thread, when AMR bought TWA Eagle grieved TSA continuing to do the feed work. We even had the “No alter Eagle airlines” stickers. I guess yours just say “No alter Ego airlines” . hummm.
Lets see here TSA is flying routs that we could have flown in the same equipment. Seems to make you an alter ego airline in my book. Go Jet is flying bigger equipment. 70 seat vs 50.
TSA pay scale is less than American Eagles, so there for they are undercutting not only there fellow ALPA airline, but lowering the bar for all regional airline pilots. No real moral high ground there.
Oh and lets not forget the whole deal in Miami. You lease American Eagle airplanes, get paid less than American Eagle pilots, and then start taking flying away from us in Miami an American Eagle base. Oh then you defend the action saying it’s the companies fault.
If you work for TSA and are going to tell people to stand up and not go work for Go Jet. I want to know what you were doing when you were screwing your fellow ALPA airline.
Did you call in Sick for Miami flying?
Express your outrage to your union rep?
Talk to your chief pilot?
Did you do anything?
I imagine TSA had a lot of that flying left over from TWE when the whole American and TWA thing happened. You could make the argument that you guys came in and took TSA flying originally but who knows.
And no, people didn't call in sick or express outrage about the MIA flying. People only take the "moral high ground" when it's convenient for them to do so. Everybody seems to loves pointing fingers at everybody else.
So far, nobody as been willing to accept that flying at any regional and accepting the pay/work rules there is undercutting the pilot group as a whole. If nobody was willing to go to any of these places, conditions would have to improve and/or the flying would go back to the majors. But hey, pointing fingers at GoJet is soooooo much easier.
08-23-2008, 04:44 PM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: MD80
Posts: 1,111
Express outrage for TSA's AE flying in MIA? Hell no 24 hour layovers baby!!!! That is the most senior flying.
08-23-2008, 06:39 PM
#73
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 30
Once again you have no idea what you are talking about. I got that trip with one of the most junior lines plus we dont even do the overnite there anymore
08-23-2008, 08:02 PM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 483
Eh, when I got the MIA trips, I always ended up overnighting in CLT at the hotel in the middle of nowhere without free internet. All I want from a hotel is a bed, air conditioning, and free internet...not necessarily in that order.
08-23-2008, 08:25 PM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,109
Ooh, here's a small difference between the eagle/tsa thing and the tsa/gojet one... AMR didn't CREATE tsa to farm out eagle's flying to. (And, of course, originally, tsa DID start american connection flying with the TWE routes THEY had prior to the AMR/TWA buyout)...
And, as it looks now, the MIA thing was resolved by Eagle getting 10 planes back and essentially ending TSA american connection flying... I want the Gojet debacle resolved the same way!
And, as it looks now, the MIA thing was resolved by Eagle getting 10 planes back and essentially ending TSA american connection flying... I want the Gojet debacle resolved the same way!
08-23-2008, 10:18 PM
#76
Gets EVERY weekend off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: SIC
Posts: 1,367
flew with a couple FO's a few months back who were really ticked about the looming furloughs and the soon to be returned eagle airplanes. As a result, we had a couple conversations about who's airplanes they are (AMR), who's routes they are (AMR). If Ceaser's face is on the coin, give the coin to Ceaser. So even though this will be my last month as Captain, i know enough to say the planes are going back where they belong, and so be it, i'm not going to hold animosity towards Eagle pilots for taking them back, and i hope you show none to me if i have to deliver them.
Airwillie-
The current gojet contract is a fairly new contract. The wages as you stated are "middle of the road" but, those wages are compared only to older contracts on the table, and not new contracts. Pay rates on the CA side are only a couple dollars / hr behind those of ASA's for CR7 operations, heck, TSA guys often argue that our CA wages are only a couple bucks / hr behind industry average also...but have you looked at Our/Your FO wages? It's the typical TSH management trick of getting "butts" in the seat, by enticing people with industry standard (sometimes better) first year pay. But looking past year one things get cloudy, and very quickly. Second year ASA FO's on the CR2/ATR72 will be making 4th year Gojet FO wages after they get off probation. Same could be argued for AirWhiskey's FO wages as well, which their first year is still higher for a CR2.
You were speaking of Gojet's "average" contract with Block or Better, which again is a new piece to the company's contract. I think block or better shouldn't be industry standard, it should be industry baseline. The thought of a person "working for free" simply doesn't make sense to me. However, it did make sense to Gojet/TSH management, when they initially had pilots flying trips for Gojet without that nice provision.
Were you at Gojet when the contract stated pilots could be given days off out of domicile? And we all know just how eager TSH management is to "get their people home"...."6 days on, one day off in Denver, work you back home when we get a chance" attitude, just hope everyone found a laundromat on the overnight somewhere....Thankfully for you guys you got that taken care of too.
I personally think that the commuter clauses aren't really worth their weight most of the time anyway. Often enough, if used properly the commuter clause allows you an "out" however, you have to leave a couple flights early to make it legally by the clause anyway. Which, will simply lead to people losing their days off, if they intend on using the clause, which causes most to simply take the "sick" route, so...to each their own.
Willie, for the sake of conversation, i'd love to hear your definition of an Alter Ego airline. I think most everyone on here can agree that Gojet pilots are not scabs. They're called it often, but it's not true, and that i can accept. Would you make the argue that they're not a whipsaw against the other TSH pilot group? Would you not agree that we could be used as Whipsaw against you? I kinda think of it as an oddity, but maybe i'm just cynical when it comes to TSH management. The upper echelons of this company have one job, make money. To do this, they resort to cutting costs in whatever way they can, be the cheapest product, and people will have to buy you. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. United flying (worked) , Continental Flying (didn't work). If Trans States is now cheaper to operate than Gojet, that'd almost make me start worrying (if i was a gojet pilot). If you think about it, the management team that was willing to undercut Trans States Airlines pilots with the creation of Gojet would be all to willing to undercut Gojet pilots for the potential of growth with another, cheaper, airline. And remember, this company is good at creating other airlines that will circumvent contractual language with regards to scope, and they'll do it well enough that a judge might even rule in the company's favor.....again.
Airwillie-
The current gojet contract is a fairly new contract. The wages as you stated are "middle of the road" but, those wages are compared only to older contracts on the table, and not new contracts. Pay rates on the CA side are only a couple dollars / hr behind those of ASA's for CR7 operations, heck, TSA guys often argue that our CA wages are only a couple bucks / hr behind industry average also...but have you looked at Our/Your FO wages? It's the typical TSH management trick of getting "butts" in the seat, by enticing people with industry standard (sometimes better) first year pay. But looking past year one things get cloudy, and very quickly. Second year ASA FO's on the CR2/ATR72 will be making 4th year Gojet FO wages after they get off probation. Same could be argued for AirWhiskey's FO wages as well, which their first year is still higher for a CR2.
You were speaking of Gojet's "average" contract with Block or Better, which again is a new piece to the company's contract. I think block or better shouldn't be industry standard, it should be industry baseline. The thought of a person "working for free" simply doesn't make sense to me. However, it did make sense to Gojet/TSH management, when they initially had pilots flying trips for Gojet without that nice provision.
Were you at Gojet when the contract stated pilots could be given days off out of domicile? And we all know just how eager TSH management is to "get their people home"...."6 days on, one day off in Denver, work you back home when we get a chance" attitude, just hope everyone found a laundromat on the overnight somewhere....Thankfully for you guys you got that taken care of too.
I personally think that the commuter clauses aren't really worth their weight most of the time anyway. Often enough, if used properly the commuter clause allows you an "out" however, you have to leave a couple flights early to make it legally by the clause anyway. Which, will simply lead to people losing their days off, if they intend on using the clause, which causes most to simply take the "sick" route, so...to each their own.
Willie, for the sake of conversation, i'd love to hear your definition of an Alter Ego airline. I think most everyone on here can agree that Gojet pilots are not scabs. They're called it often, but it's not true, and that i can accept. Would you make the argue that they're not a whipsaw against the other TSH pilot group? Would you not agree that we could be used as Whipsaw against you? I kinda think of it as an oddity, but maybe i'm just cynical when it comes to TSH management. The upper echelons of this company have one job, make money. To do this, they resort to cutting costs in whatever way they can, be the cheapest product, and people will have to buy you. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. United flying (worked) , Continental Flying (didn't work). If Trans States is now cheaper to operate than Gojet, that'd almost make me start worrying (if i was a gojet pilot). If you think about it, the management team that was willing to undercut Trans States Airlines pilots with the creation of Gojet would be all to willing to undercut Gojet pilots for the potential of growth with another, cheaper, airline. And remember, this company is good at creating other airlines that will circumvent contractual language with regards to scope, and they'll do it well enough that a judge might even rule in the company's favor.....again.
Last edited by flynavyj; 08-23-2008 at 10:28 PM.
08-24-2008, 01:01 AM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: MD80
Posts: 1,111
Willie, for the sake of conversation, i'd love to hear your definition of an Alter Ego airline. I think most everyone on here can agree that Gojet pilots are not scabs. They're called it often, but it's not true, and that i can accept. Would you make the argue that they're not a whipsaw against the other TSH pilot group? Would you not agree that we could be used as Whipsaw against you? I kind And remember, this company is good at creating other airlines that will circumvent contractual language with regards to scope, and they'll do it well enough that a judge might even rule in the company's favor.....again.
Ok what about the fact that GJ pilots undermined other regional pilots? Well take a snap shot of today, are GJ pilots undermining anybody? Look at the pay and contract it took GJ less than a year to become union with a decent contract. And we're talking relative here, is there any regional out there even remotely close to having ideal pay. The only argument that people have is that GJ is an alter ego, assuming GJ is one.......(ALPA VS TSH), well how many alter egos can you name off the top of your head? Freedom? GJ? Republic, any other???? The fact is that guys are making it such a big issue when it's NOT, these airlines were formed to get around a scope clause especially a relatively obtuse one where the mainline actually allows one of their regional to fly 70 seats but not the other ones. That's it, despite what conspiracies you may come up with evil managements to destroy pilot groups, GJ will NOT have any affect on your airline or your QOL. If management could form alter egos we'd probably have seen more of them don't you think? The only affect on your airline and QOL will come from the guys on the 3rd floor and their inability to manage a hand full of airplanes while playing with people's lives as if they are just random numbers on a list.
Last edited by AirWillie; 08-24-2008 at 01:27 AM.
08-24-2008, 06:18 AM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: CL-65 captain
Posts: 2,244
colgan, not originally created as one, but purchased as one by a "holding company" specifically to weasel out of a contract. Big Sky....
08-24-2008, 07:31 AM
#79
Gets EVERY weekend off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: SIC
Posts: 1,367
Freedom A = Alter Ego
Freedom B= not Alter Ego (merged seniority list)
Republic / Shuttle = Not alter ego, same list
Trans States / Gojet wouldn't be an effective whipsaw IF it was all on one list, however, because it isn't, growth on either front could be jeopardized by the other group. Much in the same way that Gojet now has 50 seat pay scales. Having those pay rates already negotiated in TSH will make it much much much more difficult to get anything better than that during contract negotiations for Trans States Airlines pilots.
Once our american flying goes away (if it does, and it's looking like it will) Trans States will no longer be seat restricted to less than 50 seat aircraft. Which, would allow us to be a very effective counter to increased gojet flying...And hopefully willie, you understand that RL wouldn't have any problem walking in to your union MEC and saying "We'd love to give you guys more flying, but we're going to have to get a pay concession, or else Trans States could just do it for cheaper".
I've heard it on many accords here at trans states, that had we voted yes on the flying then ironed out the kinks later things would have worked out, and the planes would be in our colors. But, had TSH management been of the caliber they would have tried to "negotiate" in good faith, as opposed to simply starting an airline with zero work rules, and a minuscule pay increase, then voting the flying down would be a mute point.
Freedom B= not Alter Ego (merged seniority list)
Republic / Shuttle = Not alter ego, same list
Trans States / Gojet wouldn't be an effective whipsaw IF it was all on one list, however, because it isn't, growth on either front could be jeopardized by the other group. Much in the same way that Gojet now has 50 seat pay scales. Having those pay rates already negotiated in TSH will make it much much much more difficult to get anything better than that during contract negotiations for Trans States Airlines pilots.
Once our american flying goes away (if it does, and it's looking like it will) Trans States will no longer be seat restricted to less than 50 seat aircraft. Which, would allow us to be a very effective counter to increased gojet flying...And hopefully willie, you understand that RL wouldn't have any problem walking in to your union MEC and saying "We'd love to give you guys more flying, but we're going to have to get a pay concession, or else Trans States could just do it for cheaper".
I've heard it on many accords here at trans states, that had we voted yes on the flying then ironed out the kinks later things would have worked out, and the planes would be in our colors. But, had TSH management been of the caliber they would have tried to "negotiate" in good faith, as opposed to simply starting an airline with zero work rules, and a minuscule pay increase, then voting the flying down would be a mute point.
Last edited by flynavyj; 08-24-2008 at 07:37 AM.
08-24-2008, 08:42 AM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: 737 F/O
Posts: 500
Good point because this is where most of us disagree. First of all GJ flying is not scab flying so that alone makes the airline approachable and others opinions on the matter relative. I would never work for a scab operation. Second is the issue of GJ flying. Well, the fact is that TSA was offered a fair deal multiple times to fly the airplanes, unlike Freedom. If pilots didn't want it, doesn't matter what happened in negotiations or whether they didn't get what they wanted, if pilots didn't want the flying then there is nothing wrong with the formation of a separate airline to have a separate work force. Anti GJ always make it out to seem like GJ guys willingly screwed everything for TSA but they forget to mention that TSA had plenty of say and had plenty of chances to negotiate with management for a "fair" deal but they didn't take it. From what I heard from guys that voted Yes the proposal was basically same as what they had with a raise in pay and a few other things. The should have taken the growth first then worried about the negotiations, this is the sentiment of many guys who voted yes. Instead the other bitter guys are blaming GJ pilots for the screwups at ALPA and TSA for not seriously negotiatin when they found that GJ was actually going to be formed. And believe me there were plenty of shady things going on in negotiations that most will never know, certainly not outside of TSA.
Ok what about the fact that GJ pilots undermined other regional pilots? Well take a snap shot of today, are GJ pilots undermining anybody? Look at the pay and contract it took GJ less than a year to become union with a decent contract. And we're talking relative here, is there any regional out there even remotely close to having ideal pay. The only argument that people have is that GJ is an alter ego, assuming GJ is one.......(ALPA VS TSH), well how many alter egos can you name off the top of your head? Freedom? GJ? Republic, any other???? The fact is that guys are making it such a big issue when it's NOT, these airlines were formed to get around a scope clause especially a relatively obtuse one where the mainline actually allows one of their regional to fly 70 seats but not the other ones. That's it, despite what conspiracies you may come up with evil managements to destroy pilot groups, GJ will NOT have any affect on your airline or your QOL. If management could form alter egos we'd probably have seen more of them don't you think? The only affect on your airline and QOL will come from the guys on the 3rd floor and their inability to manage a hand full of airplanes while playing with people's lives as if they are just random numbers on a list.
Ok what about the fact that GJ pilots undermined other regional pilots? Well take a snap shot of today, are GJ pilots undermining anybody? Look at the pay and contract it took GJ less than a year to become union with a decent contract. And we're talking relative here, is there any regional out there even remotely close to having ideal pay. The only argument that people have is that GJ is an alter ego, assuming GJ is one.......(ALPA VS TSH), well how many alter egos can you name off the top of your head? Freedom? GJ? Republic, any other???? The fact is that guys are making it such a big issue when it's NOT, these airlines were formed to get around a scope clause especially a relatively obtuse one where the mainline actually allows one of their regional to fly 70 seats but not the other ones. That's it, despite what conspiracies you may come up with evil managements to destroy pilot groups, GJ will NOT have any affect on your airline or your QOL. If management could form alter egos we'd probably have seen more of them don't you think? The only affect on your airline and QOL will come from the guys on the 3rd floor and their inability to manage a hand full of airplanes while playing with people's lives as if they are just random numbers on a list.
I guess you gotta justify your existance somehow
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