Originally Posted by boilerpilot

I can't believe I'm actually getting involved in this thread as my first from getting back from vacation, but I'll make an attempt at putting it in a different perspective.

Blackwing, you're correct in your assumption that GoJet pilots aren't technically scabs, however, in all senses of the word, they are. Let me explain what my reasoning is and present a hypothetical.

I'll start with the hypothetical. A company presents its pilot group with a substandard contract. The pilot group votes down the contract. Management fires all the pilots and hires new ones to fly the substandard contract. While the pilots never struck, would it really be unreasonable to call the new pilots scabs? I think it's completely reasonable to. While TSH didn't fire all of the TSA pilots, it DID furlough quite a few pilots(unrelated to the CoEx furloughs, which actually happened much later than the GoJet debacle), stripped many of a fourth stripe, and delayed the upgrade of even more pilots.

The TSA pilot group tried to hold out, and they were severely punished.

Here is, hopefully, a useful compilation of some of the information regarding the tension between GoJet and, well, the rest of the airline inudstry. TSA flies 50 seat jets. TSH wants to start flying larger aircraft, and presents a contract that initially is extremely substandard, which is rejected by the pilot group. Management comes back to the pilot group with an improved, but still slightly substandard contract, but now it has the stipulation that the new pay rates are for ALL aircraft 70 seats and above (not just 70 seats). Realizing that with the introduction of aircraft carrying far more passengers than 70 seats (i.e. 90 and above) is not only possible but also quite likely with JetA going the way it was, the TSA pilot group turned down the contract because they wanted to negotiate separate pay rates for larger aircraft. At that point, because the contract had been voted down, rather than deal with the pilot group, people were furloughed, demoted, or had careers that stagnated.

Imagine for a second an airline like Southwest Airlines added, say, 767s to their fleet (this is an over simplified example, but bear with me). SWA management approaches SWAPA and says "ok, we'll pay you $200 to fly these 767s," to which the pilot group responds "no, that's barely above what we make now, and you're getting twice the pax on there". SWA management comes back and says "ok, here's $250 and it applies to all aircraft 767 size and above", meaning that when SWA orders the A380, it will now be included at the 767 rate, despite the fact that it's twice the size. SWAPA refuses it, so management, rather than dealing with SWAPA, fires the number of pilots it had hired in anticipation for the new 767 flying, and then offers the still-substandard contract to off the street pilots. Can you see why there would be some animosity towards these new pilots, regardless of whether or not they improve that contract admit a union later on?

I know it's a somewhat odd example, and not enormously plausible due to SWA, well, never ordering either A/C, but the point remains valid (and actually, on a proportions level, it actually works pretty well when compared to the regional level).

The reason this hits home for so many pilots isn't because we all love TSA pilots or anything like that, but rather because it shows a complete lack of respect to the piloting profession from management (you guys want more money for bigger planes? hell, we'll find some kid to do it for cheaper! you guys are just a commodity anyway), shows a complete lack of respect to the piloting profession from other pilots (you lost your job trying to stick up for what's right? OOOO SHINY JET!), and shows a complete lack of respect for other pilots by the GoJet pilots (oh, you lost your job? oh well, sucks to be you dumb***, cause I just got your job!!!).

Why would anybody respect such people, other than ignorance about the issue? Why would anybody go work for such a company, ESPECIALLY when there are so many other companies out there hiring pilots with soaking wet CPLs? I'm not going to tell you that if you go to GoJet you'll never get hired again by any other airline, but you run the very real risk of going to an airline that is eventually your dream airline, and having somebody who DOES dislike GoJet because of what they stand for. There are certainly GoJetters that have gotten out and gone to majors, but there's a great many of them that haven't for exactly this reason. Is it a certainty you won't get hired? No, but is it worth a 30% chance that you go to your major airline (or even SKW, which has a great many Waterskiers there) that you won't get hired no matter how much you ace your interview? I don't think so, but that's my opinion.

The bottom line, to all those who support the pilots at GoJet, is that it's difficult to differentiate between facts and opinions in this matter. The reason for that is because the very core of this issue is centered around emotion and ethics. Anybody who has spent any time studying either (or for the emotion side, has a wife/husband!) will know that there's seldom one right answer. Ethics and emotions are two of the most elusive areas of study out there, and there's a reason that people devote entire careers to studying them.

So I'm sorry to Blackwing in particular, who seems to be looking for irrefutable facts that GoJet pilots are indeed the spawns of Satan, as so many people make them out to be. I can't provide you with facts, nor can anybody else. I can, however, say that the GoJet case is as clear-cut ethically dubious as any case of ethics is, and that alone should be a deterrent.

I'll leave all of the GoJet supporters with one last thought. Many of you have stated that "it's a dog eat dog world" or "I have to do what's best for me, to hell with who I step on". To those people I say this: think about yourself. Yes it's possible that this will be the opportunity of a lifetime, and you'll be on at UPS or United or Delta or Continental or SWA in 2 years. But it's also possible that your aspirations of working at a Legacy or Major or Cargo carrier will be dashed. And for what? An extra FA? Three months of your career you don't have to deal with commuting? An extra dollar an hour? These things are trivial, but your moral and ethical fortitude stays with you your entire life, and can have far greater implications than many on these forums would care to admit. Is it really worth it?

Originally Posted by JiffyLube

Holy Crap...Boilerpilot my man... If you have this much time coming back from vacation to write a post like this... PM me so I can buy you a trip to LAS and some hookers... You truly need a life!!!

Originally Posted by Blackwing

So I guess what I'm left wondering is what makes the TSA/GoJet situation different from the Mesa/Freedom one? Why the animosity toward G7 pilots who came to the party after the fact? It seems that everybody cuts the Freedom B list guys slack, why don't the GoJet guys who came later granted the same courtesy?

Originally Posted by denramp

My conclusion is that it really doesnt matter which regional you work at so if GoJet will give you a job take it.

Originally Posted by Atreyu

So the two people in this thread, that has blown it up to epic proportions, are a ramper from Denver whose never flown and some kid with less than 600 hours?