Unpolitical opinion on GoJet
03-03-2008, 09:29 AM
#311
Furlough line holder
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: CRJ2, ATR, CRJ7, E145, 737
Posts: 1,845
You've already admitted you weren't there, you aren't an airline pilot..so who are you to question these truths.
03-03-2008, 09:36 AM
#312
Gets EVERY weekend off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: SIC
Posts: 1,367
Blackwing,
All i'm noticing is that you are trying to get the best "opinion" on gojet as possible (fair) and your opinion says that they're not a bunch of scabs (ok, whatever)
If i can convince myself that the sky isn't blue but green, then that's fine and dandy, even if everyone else tells me that it's blue, I can still go around thinking that it's green. You're essentially going to get the same value out of gojet, everyone around you says they're dirt, you say "why?", everyone says "cause, see reason xxx" You say "but look at this reason..." And we all say "We don't care about them taking their flying, no harm no foul" You say "why not? Gojet = good" We say "we're sicking of saying you say we say" ....
Truth be told, if you want gojet to be a good company that you're willing to work for go ahead, it can't be wrong because there are another 150 pilots who work there who've justified it as well....There are tens of thousands of pilots who are against it, probably thousands who are indifferent, and many tens of thousands who just don't know a thing about it. Guess the real question is, is your sky blue, or green?
All i'm noticing is that you are trying to get the best "opinion" on gojet as possible (fair) and your opinion says that they're not a bunch of scabs (ok, whatever)
If i can convince myself that the sky isn't blue but green, then that's fine and dandy, even if everyone else tells me that it's blue, I can still go around thinking that it's green. You're essentially going to get the same value out of gojet, everyone around you says they're dirt, you say "why?", everyone says "cause, see reason xxx" You say "but look at this reason..." And we all say "We don't care about them taking their flying, no harm no foul" You say "why not? Gojet = good" We say "we're sicking of saying you say we say" ....
Truth be told, if you want gojet to be a good company that you're willing to work for go ahead, it can't be wrong because there are another 150 pilots who work there who've justified it as well....There are tens of thousands of pilots who are against it, probably thousands who are indifferent, and many tens of thousands who just don't know a thing about it. Guess the real question is, is your sky blue, or green?
03-03-2008, 09:58 AM
#313
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: WB Bunkie
Posts: 1,246
Talk about ignorance.
Scabbing is flying struck work, PERIOD. Lotta people around here throw that term around awfully casually, applying it to anything they deem distasteful. It's not working at an unpopular company, it's not being "anti-union", it's not working for substandard wages (or you'd all be scabs). Such misuse diminishes the severity of the term, something to think about.
No, not a troll, I'm actually a pilot investigating all my options, and when all the anti-GoJet rhetoric that I see out there has more holes in its reasoning than a piece of swiss cheese, I have to raise a B.S. flag and continue my search for the truth.
Scabbing is flying struck work, PERIOD. Lotta people around here throw that term around awfully casually, applying it to anything they deem distasteful. It's not working at an unpopular company, it's not being "anti-union", it's not working for substandard wages (or you'd all be scabs). Such misuse diminishes the severity of the term, something to think about.
No, not a troll, I'm actually a pilot investigating all my options, and when all the anti-GoJet rhetoric that I see out there has more holes in its reasoning than a piece of swiss cheese, I have to raise a B.S. flag and continue my search for the truth.
03-03-2008, 12:45 PM
#314
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: ERJ CA
Posts: 1,082
Commute issues, for one. I live out west, and STL is a reasonable commute. I have a friend who lives in the same city as me, flies for XJT and has a miserable commute to EWR. I don't want to go someplace like PDT or Colgan, that commute would be even worse.
SKYW is where I actually want to be, but a) they've stopped hiring for now, and b) they've held their mins at 1000/100 except for those with Pt 121 jet time. So I figure, get a little experience at G7, jump ship to SKYW at the earliest opportunity.
SKYW is where I actually want to be, but a) they've stopped hiring for now, and b) they've held their mins at 1000/100 except for those with Pt 121 jet time. So I figure, get a little experience at G7, jump ship to SKYW at the earliest opportunity.
03-03-2008, 01:09 PM
#315
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: ERJ CA
Posts: 1,082
Learning to be a critical consumer of information is one of the most important skills anyone can have; simply accepting on blind faith anything anyone tells you is the mark of a mindless sheep. My undergrad degree was in the behavioral sciences, where experimental design study taught me that one must search equally hard for evidence disproving your hypothesis, or alternative explanations/causes for a given effect. Studies are peer reviewed for exactly this purpose, and not even then are a study's results accepted as 100% conclusive.
It's foolish to rely on logical reasoning shortcuts like "the most probable answer is usually the correct one", because they aren't foolproof. Rarely do we ever have ALL the information relating to the issue at hand. It's a virtual certainty that TSA management's version of this story is radically different from the TSA pilots' version, and from an analysis perspective, one must consider who has "better" information from several standpoints: access, bias, prejudgement, etc.
03-03-2008, 01:12 PM
#316
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: ERJ CA
Posts: 1,082
03-03-2008, 03:06 PM
#317
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Satan's Camaro
Posts: 397
I can't believe I'm actually getting involved in this thread as my first from getting back from vacation, but I'll make an attempt at putting it in a different perspective.
Blackwing, you're correct in your assumption that GoJet pilots aren't technically scabs, however, in all senses of the word, they are. Let me explain what my reasoning is and present a hypothetical.
I'll start with the hypothetical. A company presents its pilot group with a substandard contract. The pilot group votes down the contract. Management fires all the pilots and hires new ones to fly the substandard contract. While the pilots never struck, would it really be unreasonable to call the new pilots scabs? I think it's completely reasonable to. While TSH didn't fire all of the TSA pilots, it DID furlough quite a few pilots(unrelated to the CoEx furloughs, which actually happened much later than the GoJet debacle), stripped many of a fourth stripe, and delayed the upgrade of even more pilots.
The TSA pilot group tried to hold out, and they were severely punished.
Here is, hopefully, a useful compilation of some of the information regarding the tension between GoJet and, well, the rest of the airline inudstry. TSA flies 50 seat jets. TSH wants to start flying larger aircraft, and presents a contract that initially is extremely substandard, which is rejected by the pilot group. Management comes back to the pilot group with an improved, but still slightly substandard contract, but now it has the stipulation that the new pay rates are for ALL aircraft 70 seats and above (not just 70 seats). Realizing that with the introduction of aircraft carrying far more passengers than 70 seats (i.e. 90 and above) is not only possible but also quite likely with JetA going the way it was, the TSA pilot group turned down the contract because they wanted to negotiate separate pay rates for larger aircraft. At that point, because the contract had been voted down, rather than deal with the pilot group, people were furloughed, demoted, or had careers that stagnated.
Imagine for a second an airline like Southwest Airlines added, say, 767s to their fleet (this is an over simplified example, but bear with me). SWA management approaches SWAPA and says "ok, we'll pay you $200 to fly these 767s," to which the pilot group responds "no, that's barely above what we make now, and you're getting twice the pax on there". SWA management comes back and says "ok, here's $250 and it applies to all aircraft 767 size and above", meaning that when SWA orders the A380, it will now be included at the 767 rate, despite the fact that it's twice the size. SWAPA refuses it, so management, rather than dealing with SWAPA, fires the number of pilots it had hired in anticipation for the new 767 flying, and then offers the still-substandard contract to off the street pilots. Can you see why there would be some animosity towards these new pilots, regardless of whether or not they improve that contract admit a union later on?
I know it's a somewhat odd example, and not enormously plausible due to SWA, well, never ordering either A/C, but the point remains valid (and actually, on a proportions level, it actually works pretty well when compared to the regional level).
The reason this hits home for so many pilots isn't because we all love TSA pilots or anything like that, but rather because it shows a complete lack of respect to the piloting profession from management (you guys want more money for bigger planes? hell, we'll find some kid to do it for cheaper! you guys are just a commodity anyway), shows a complete lack of respect to the piloting profession from other pilots (you lost your job trying to stick up for what's right? OOOO SHINY JET!), and shows a complete lack of respect for other pilots by the GoJet pilots (oh, you lost your job? oh well, sucks to be you dumb***, cause I just got your job!!!).
Why would anybody respect such people, other than ignorance about the issue? Why would anybody go work for such a company, ESPECIALLY when there are so many other companies out there hiring pilots with soaking wet CPLs? I'm not going to tell you that if you go to GoJet you'll never get hired again by any other airline, but you run the very real risk of going to an airline that is eventually your dream airline, and having somebody who DOES dislike GoJet because of what they stand for. There are certainly GoJetters that have gotten out and gone to majors, but there's a great many of them that haven't for exactly this reason. Is it a certainty you won't get hired? No, but is it worth a 30% chance that you go to your major airline (or even SKW, which has a great many Waterskiers there) that you won't get hired no matter how much you ace your interview? I don't think so, but that's my opinion.
The bottom line, to all those who support the pilots at GoJet, is that it's difficult to differentiate between facts and opinions in this matter. The reason for that is because the very core of this issue is centered around emotion and ethics. Anybody who has spent any time studying either (or for the emotion side, has a wife/husband!) will know that there's seldom one right answer. Ethics and emotions are two of the most elusive areas of study out there, and there's a reason that people devote entire careers to studying them.
So I'm sorry to Blackwing in particular, who seems to be looking for irrefutable facts that GoJet pilots are indeed the spawns of Satan, as so many people make them out to be. I can't provide you with facts, nor can anybody else. I can, however, say that the GoJet case is as clear-cut ethically dubious as any case of ethics is, and that alone should be a deterrent.
I'll leave all of the GoJet supporters with one last thought. Many of you have stated that "it's a dog eat dog world" or "I have to do what's best for me, to hell with who I step on". To those people I say this: think about yourself. Yes it's possible that this will be the opportunity of a lifetime, and you'll be on at UPS or United or Delta or Continental or SWA in 2 years. But it's also possible that your aspirations of working at a Legacy or Major or Cargo carrier will be dashed. And for what? An extra FA? Three months of your career you don't have to deal with commuting? An extra dollar an hour? These things are trivial, but your moral and ethical fortitude stays with you your entire life, and can have far greater implications than many on these forums would care to admit. Is it really worth it?
Blackwing, you're correct in your assumption that GoJet pilots aren't technically scabs, however, in all senses of the word, they are. Let me explain what my reasoning is and present a hypothetical.
I'll start with the hypothetical. A company presents its pilot group with a substandard contract. The pilot group votes down the contract. Management fires all the pilots and hires new ones to fly the substandard contract. While the pilots never struck, would it really be unreasonable to call the new pilots scabs? I think it's completely reasonable to. While TSH didn't fire all of the TSA pilots, it DID furlough quite a few pilots(unrelated to the CoEx furloughs, which actually happened much later than the GoJet debacle), stripped many of a fourth stripe, and delayed the upgrade of even more pilots.
The TSA pilot group tried to hold out, and they were severely punished.
Here is, hopefully, a useful compilation of some of the information regarding the tension between GoJet and, well, the rest of the airline inudstry. TSA flies 50 seat jets. TSH wants to start flying larger aircraft, and presents a contract that initially is extremely substandard, which is rejected by the pilot group. Management comes back to the pilot group with an improved, but still slightly substandard contract, but now it has the stipulation that the new pay rates are for ALL aircraft 70 seats and above (not just 70 seats). Realizing that with the introduction of aircraft carrying far more passengers than 70 seats (i.e. 90 and above) is not only possible but also quite likely with JetA going the way it was, the TSA pilot group turned down the contract because they wanted to negotiate separate pay rates for larger aircraft. At that point, because the contract had been voted down, rather than deal with the pilot group, people were furloughed, demoted, or had careers that stagnated.
Imagine for a second an airline like Southwest Airlines added, say, 767s to their fleet (this is an over simplified example, but bear with me). SWA management approaches SWAPA and says "ok, we'll pay you $200 to fly these 767s," to which the pilot group responds "no, that's barely above what we make now, and you're getting twice the pax on there". SWA management comes back and says "ok, here's $250 and it applies to all aircraft 767 size and above", meaning that when SWA orders the A380, it will now be included at the 767 rate, despite the fact that it's twice the size. SWAPA refuses it, so management, rather than dealing with SWAPA, fires the number of pilots it had hired in anticipation for the new 767 flying, and then offers the still-substandard contract to off the street pilots. Can you see why there would be some animosity towards these new pilots, regardless of whether or not they improve that contract admit a union later on?
I know it's a somewhat odd example, and not enormously plausible due to SWA, well, never ordering either A/C, but the point remains valid (and actually, on a proportions level, it actually works pretty well when compared to the regional level).
The reason this hits home for so many pilots isn't because we all love TSA pilots or anything like that, but rather because it shows a complete lack of respect to the piloting profession from management (you guys want more money for bigger planes? hell, we'll find some kid to do it for cheaper! you guys are just a commodity anyway), shows a complete lack of respect to the piloting profession from other pilots (you lost your job trying to stick up for what's right? OOOO SHINY JET!), and shows a complete lack of respect for other pilots by the GoJet pilots (oh, you lost your job? oh well, sucks to be you dumb***, cause I just got your job!!!).
Why would anybody respect such people, other than ignorance about the issue? Why would anybody go work for such a company, ESPECIALLY when there are so many other companies out there hiring pilots with soaking wet CPLs? I'm not going to tell you that if you go to GoJet you'll never get hired again by any other airline, but you run the very real risk of going to an airline that is eventually your dream airline, and having somebody who DOES dislike GoJet because of what they stand for. There are certainly GoJetters that have gotten out and gone to majors, but there's a great many of them that haven't for exactly this reason. Is it a certainty you won't get hired? No, but is it worth a 30% chance that you go to your major airline (or even SKW, which has a great many Waterskiers there) that you won't get hired no matter how much you ace your interview? I don't think so, but that's my opinion.
The bottom line, to all those who support the pilots at GoJet, is that it's difficult to differentiate between facts and opinions in this matter. The reason for that is because the very core of this issue is centered around emotion and ethics. Anybody who has spent any time studying either (or for the emotion side, has a wife/husband!) will know that there's seldom one right answer. Ethics and emotions are two of the most elusive areas of study out there, and there's a reason that people devote entire careers to studying them.
So I'm sorry to Blackwing in particular, who seems to be looking for irrefutable facts that GoJet pilots are indeed the spawns of Satan, as so many people make them out to be. I can't provide you with facts, nor can anybody else. I can, however, say that the GoJet case is as clear-cut ethically dubious as any case of ethics is, and that alone should be a deterrent.
I'll leave all of the GoJet supporters with one last thought. Many of you have stated that "it's a dog eat dog world" or "I have to do what's best for me, to hell with who I step on". To those people I say this: think about yourself. Yes it's possible that this will be the opportunity of a lifetime, and you'll be on at UPS or United or Delta or Continental or SWA in 2 years. But it's also possible that your aspirations of working at a Legacy or Major or Cargo carrier will be dashed. And for what? An extra FA? Three months of your career you don't have to deal with commuting? An extra dollar an hour? These things are trivial, but your moral and ethical fortitude stays with you your entire life, and can have far greater implications than many on these forums would care to admit. Is it really worth it?
03-03-2008, 03:33 PM
#318
Gets EVERY weekend off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: SIC
Posts: 1,367
Commute issues, for one. I live out west, and STL is a reasonable commute. I have a friend who lives in the same city as me, flies for XJT and has a miserable commute to EWR. I don't want to go someplace like PDT or Colgan, that commute would be even worse.
SKYW is where I actually want to be, but a) they've stopped hiring for now, and b) they've held their mins at 1000/100 except for those with Pt 121 jet time. So I figure, get a little experience at G7, jump ship to SKYW at the earliest opportunity.
SKYW is where I actually want to be, but a) they've stopped hiring for now, and b) they've held their mins at 1000/100 except for those with Pt 121 jet time. So I figure, get a little experience at G7, jump ship to SKYW at the earliest opportunity.
Have you already interviewed or been offered a classdate at Gojet yet? just curious, your posts makes it seem like you're pretty committed to going there, which makes me think you've already got the job offer, which would make it very difficult to simply walk away, you're probably thinking if turning down this airline offer will actually prolong your entry into the industry. But just for grins, how much do you think you're going to enjoy flying at skywest, 3 months after flying for G7, when you get to explain why you went there to each captain you fly with who's ex-TSA? Doesn't seem like something i'd enjoy going over every single time the "So what'd you do before this?" question gets brought up, and THAT is definitely not the way i'd be wanting to start off my airline career.
03-03-2008, 04:23 PM
#319
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: ERJ CA
Posts: 1,082
Many thanks to Boilerpilot for a well thought out and respectful post. I think I have a pretty good understanding of the situation, I get that the original G7 guys stabbed their buddies in the back and did the profession a disservice by taking a substandard contract, but many of those errors have been corrected (union, CBA, industry-average rates, and only slightly below-average work rules, from what I've read). So I guess what I'm left wondering is what makes the TSA/GoJet situation different from the Mesa/Freedom one? Why the animosity toward G7 pilots who came to the party after the fact? It seems that everybody cuts the Freedom B list guys slack, why don't the GoJet guys who came later granted the same courtesy?
As for the scab thing, I'm afraid I'm going to stand my ground on that one; a scab is ONLY someone who has crossed a picket line and flown struck work. Period, end of story. It's not a flexible term, and to permit "scope-creep" on such a loaded term is dangerous for everybody.
No, I don't have a class date at G7 or anywhere else, but I'm about to hit 600 hrs TT and am actively planning out my next career move. I'm not a CFI and don't have squat for multi time (10 hrs) so I've got to investigate ALL my options, even unpopular ones.
As for the scab thing, I'm afraid I'm going to stand my ground on that one; a scab is ONLY someone who has crossed a picket line and flown struck work. Period, end of story. It's not a flexible term, and to permit "scope-creep" on such a loaded term is dangerous for everybody.
No, I don't have a class date at G7 or anywhere else, but I'm about to hit 600 hrs TT and am actively planning out my next career move. I'm not a CFI and don't have squat for multi time (10 hrs) so I've got to investigate ALL my options, even unpopular ones.
03-03-2008, 04:36 PM
#320
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 53
I think that it is interesting that about every airline will have pilots saying don't come to our airline because it sucks...work rules suck, no upgrades, pay sucks, yadda yadda yadda.
I have seen Mesa pilots, Pinnacle pilots, PSA pilots, TSA pilots, Mesaba pilots, but I have yet to see a GoJet pilot on here saying that the job sucks and don't come here.
I know for a fact that GoJet has TSA pilots, Comair pilots, American Eagle pilots, Pinnacle, Pilots, ASA pilots and all have said that the jobs are the same wherever.
My conclusion is that it really doesnt matter which regional you work at so if GoJet will give you a job take it.
I have seen Mesa pilots, Pinnacle pilots, PSA pilots, TSA pilots, Mesaba pilots, but I have yet to see a GoJet pilot on here saying that the job sucks and don't come here.
I know for a fact that GoJet has TSA pilots, Comair pilots, American Eagle pilots, Pinnacle, Pilots, ASA pilots and all have said that the jobs are the same wherever.
My conclusion is that it really doesnt matter which regional you work at so if GoJet will give you a job take it.
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