ExperimentalAB

Thanks POPA - that post certainly did need to be repeated...though I don't think he'd get it even if we could pull it off the computer screen and beat him over the head with it LoL...again, excellent post.

POPA

No, it's not semantics. You stated "Of course TSA was created to steal flying away from Eagle." I refuted that statement. Semantics don't enter into the conversation, and throwing that word into your post doesn't change the fact that you were wrong. I guess you slept through your university lessons on debate, in addition to history.

Express carriers didn't steal any flying from mainline drivers. The previous generation of mainline pilots, in their infinite wisdom, decided that they did not want to fly smaller aircraft. Let me say that again, since you seem to have a need for the repetition of important statements: mainline pilots turned down the flying currently done by express carriers. Once this flying was put up for bid, different express carriers put out bids for the flying, and the flying was awarded by the majors based on their analysis of the service provided by the express carriers versus the cost to the major.

Trans States, like Chautauqua, is limited to 50-seat jets due to their scope clause with American Airlines. When Hulas (owner of Trans States) got the chance to fly bigger airplanes for United, Trans States management took a pay proposal to the pilots of TSA. The proposal was a joke, at best. Meanwhile, TSA was hiring pilots in anticipation of the increased flying. Instead of negotiating the pay with the pilot group, TSA (who was now Trans States Holdings) created the GoJet certificate. Unlike Republic Airways Holdings, which combines three operating certificates on one seniority list, Trans States Holdings consists of two completely separate seniority lists. At the same time that TSA was furloughing (for a couple of reasons, but largely due to the new certificate in the building and subsequent lack of need for pilots at TSA), GoJet was hiring. Trans States jobs were lost as a direct result of the creation of G7. It doesn't take a college education in management (which I have) to see the correlation.

But hey, if you want to go to GoJet even after all of that, have at it. I won't even try to dissuade you by saying you'll be hated throughout your career. Just remember that, ultimately, the same people who are in charge at GJ are the people who are in charge at Trans States. If (and that's a big if) US Airways comes to TSH with an offer for CRJ-900s, TSH management will be more than happy to create a third operating certificate to blow past GoJet pilots who want more pay for a bigger plane, and you'll be in the same place that Trans States pilots were two years ago.

Don't say we didn't warn you.

de727ups

"The previous generation of mainline pilots, in their infinite wisdom, decided that they did not want to fly smaller aircraft"

Ummmm. May be. But I was around back then and the "smaller aircraft" of the day had between 19 and 38 seats. Not 70. Not 76. Not 90. And not flying between major hubs.

I don't really have a dog in the fight. But it bothers me when guys who have been in the biz less than 10 years blame legacy guys for folding on scope. There is more to the picture than most of you are commonly interested in considering.

The word "scapegoat" comes to mind....

POPA

There's a difference between accusing older mainline pilots of giving up scope on smaller aircraft (which I'm doing), and blaming them for it (which I'm not).

There's no way they could have forseen today's state of affairs when the agreements were first signed years ago. The concept of "regional jets" didn't exist, and wouldn't for some time. Additionally, the pay that the pilots were offered, while higher than what we regional guys make, weren't really on par with what a mainline driver should pull down. A lot of the problem there is with the fact that it's nigh impossible to make money flying 50-seat jets unless you're willing to charge more than the typical passenger thinks they should pay. Unfortunately, airlines seem to be willing to bend over backwards to keep that $50-per-leg passenger from taking Greyhound.

I certainly can't be bitter with the pilots who gave up scope, as I wasn't there when it happened. In retrospect, my "in their infinite wisdom" comment was probably a little too sacarstic. I had to censor myself on our union message board and still have some pent-up rage over that. However, the fact is that my fellow pilots are flying CRJ900s and EMB175s for crappy pay between hub airports because scope on those planes was given up by mainline pilots.

freezingflyboy

I gotta agree with POPA. As someone who got to the game late (meaning I am still at the regional level and only been here a couple years) I wish I was flying a Saab or Dash-8 and dreaming about the day I might get on at Delta or American or CAL flying a "small jet" like a CRJ, ERJ or E-Jet. I would gladly accept the pay I have now (or even a little more) if it meant I was also building seniority at a "career destination" airline.

I don't blame the mainline guys who were around at the time, they had no way of seeing what the impact of the RJ decision would be. As it turned out, it was a win for management all the way around. What I DO have an issue with is guys who fly around the "large" RJs (CR7s, -9s, E170s/175s and the like) for the same as some of us fly 50 seaters around AND are OK with it. Absolutely blows me away that we are flying airplanes with MORE revenue potential than the original DC-9s for the same money (or in some cases LESS) that I make flying 37/50 seat jets.

de727ups

"Absolutely blows me away that we are flying airplanes with MORE revenue potential than the original DC-9s for the same money (or in some cases LESS) that I make flying 37/50 seat jets"

So, maybe some of the guys complaining about legacy scope and what happened 20 years ago should look in the mirror? I know this has been talked about ad infinitum. But regional guys should be looking out for themselves. Have their own union. And make their own future.

I remember when America West had Dash 8's as part of their fleet and pilots as part of their list. That's how it should have played out over the years. Would be better for everyone except management.

reevesofskyking

I think one thing this thread and many before has illistrated well.....the mangement stranglehold,workarounds, whipsaws, and what ever else has evolved out of control of anyone.

It is starting to seem like that best thing ideal thing to do, is scrap the whole infrastructure and start over. I think anyone with half a brain knows that is indsutry is too far vested in currents ways to ever acheive some kind of reform. I am not talking about gains that are going to be made on the "individual level" unions and their pilot groups. Of course there is going to be some modest gains when you look smaller scale.

But does anyone honestly believe outside of wishful thinking that American is going to own and fly their own fleet of rj's with their own pilots. I think that is a vaild question when you stand it up agains any of the legecy carriers. It seems to be the overwheming conclusion that they will not.

My gut feeling on this whole mess is down the not too distant future you are going to see the legecy expand into more and more international flying and broaden their market share and their bottom that way. This very well may be done through consolidation and mergers. With that idea, I think the lower 48 state market will become dominated by not RJ's. but the new domestic mainline aircraft of 70-120 seats. I think the trend is already gaining a fair amount of steam. you are seeing this with the new E-jet family of airframes, and also from bombardier with their new aircraft, the only info I have is that CS seris thread that was floating around here the other day. Sure it might only be a concept right now, but thats the whole point. Aircraft makers are already re-structuring to meet that new demand.

These are only my ideas, and I can shake the 8-ball all day long, and when it stops it always has a different answer.

I would like to think that I am not the only one that has idea. I did not say I was for it, but it might be one of those things that no one is really ready to say outloud.

Blackwing

Sure--but it's easy to draw a faulty conclusion; anyone with a science background knows that correlation does not prove causality.

I don't know if you were at TSA then, but from what I've read, but it's not difficult to imagine that United gave TSA a figure to work within, and it sounds like they did their best to work within it. That they began to hire pilots at TSA in anticipation of this additional flying shows that they had intended for this to be done by the TSA pilot group, save for the union's repeated refusals. I don't know what rates were offered or demanded, but the fact that G7's block rates are unremarkably average among CR7 operators is suspicious to me.

People don't always act in their own best interests; they didn't realize it at the time, but the mainline pilots blew it when they passed on "commuter" flying, and people close to the situation have admitted that the TSA pilots played chicken with management and lost. They're just unwilling to acknowledge they did it to themselves and the GoJet pilots are an easy target.

Honestly, it doesn't bother me to be hated by strangers if I know why, and I know their reasoning to be flawed. This is kinda the position I'm arriving at with GoJet. Believe me, I'm the type that if I were to take a job at GoJet, I'd draft up a flyer with all the common criticisms, refuted point-by-point (with references), which I'd hand out to anyone who felt the need to lecture me on the "errors" of my ways.

denramp

These are the lies that the moderators of this website allow...GoJet pays 60 dollars an hour first year pay for a 66 seat jet....comparable to all other 66 seat jet pilot groups...they have block or better per segment..not per trip...per month..per 90 day rolling period...they get it per leg....
The comuter clause is you list for three flights and can't get on...then you won't be gigged for a no show...it is a fine commuter clause....they get 95 percent line guarantee...and 100 percent if they make their number...98 percent completion factor.

Not the best in the industy but better than mesa, pinnacle, tsa, mesaba, and about the same as psa, comair, skywest asa.

Keep spreading the lies and I will continue to show everyone what this website is about until I get the boot.

denramp

I agree with 727 on this one...the blame is every regional pilot that has taken a job flying for a regional at 19 an hour over the last ten years...you all could have said no to regional and flew freight or flight instructed until the regional had to pay thirty or more an hour to fly in a 121 environment.

You all took the low paying job ten years ago and are now blaming guys from doing the same thing you did by taking 23 dollar an hour jobs at GoJet, Mesa, ect.

It is just a matter of I caved but I want the other guys to have the juevos that I didnt have and if they don't, than they are to blame.