AerChungus

I hate to be the bad guy, but if we're throwing around citations, consider this except from the end of the Aviate program guide (all caps theirs, not mine):

"UNITED RESERVES THE RIGHT TO WAIVE OR SUSPEND ANY OF THE REQUIREMENTS SET FORTH IN THIS PROGRAM GUIDE FOR ONE OR MORE PARTICIPANTS, AT ANY TIME AND IN ITS SOLE DISCRETION."

United actually uses the term "sole discretion" 11 times in a 25 page document to describe how they make consideration on individual cases and how they choose who gets to go to United. Aviate is more of a "gesture of goodwill" than a contract

TwoDaysBehind

In other words, those who can't get hired by Delta or American at this point, ain't gonna be rescued by Aviate.

No excuses, get out and grab a chair at the actual table instead of playing pretend on Navaid road.

GimmieDaLoot

I dont think you are understanding what SOLE DISCRETION means.

For example, on the APG requirements, it says unite can waive these requirements under their discretion.

This means if someone called in sick on thanksgiving 4 years ago, but never did it again in the 5 year window, united will give them a pass.

Or if someone had 2 initial 121 failures at their first airline, and went on to succeed at their second, and made captain, etc. They will will waive it on their discretion as well.

"Discretion" in certain parts of the APG is meant to HELP the individual more than go against them

AerChungus

I chose a poor citation, here's a more relevant one:

"UNITED, IN ITS SOLE DISCRETION, RESERVES THE RIGHT TO MODIFY, SUSPEND OR TERMINATE THIS PROGRAM GUIDE AT ANY TIME, WITHOUT NOTICE TO OR CONSENT OF, ANY CANDIDATE, PARTICIPANT, OR ANY OTHER INDIVIDUAL"

Respectfully, I disagree. The way I see it, "Discretion" is meant to help United. If the company's interests are aligned with the mutual benefit of a pilot/group of pilots, then that's just a bonus. Look at what they just did with the new Aviate terms. They changed it around so that you can no longer do the 2000 hours of SIC route and forcing PIC time. I can't imagine that sat well with senior FOs who now aren't going to flow until they do some captain time. United's interests are to keep their regionals staffed, and they used their discretion reserved in the APG to force people to upgrade before coming over.

I agree with you that they also used "discretion" to waive captain upgrade failures, but surely you can see how the benefit to individual pilots is only incidental to United incentivizing people to staff the left seat on UAX

GimmieDaLoot

The senior FO's you are talking about wont do captain time. They are grandfathered in and dont need PIC time to flow if they were within X months of flowing (dont remember the exact number)

The discretion part I quoted was at the top of the eligibility requiremnts

"A. General Performance Standards
Participants of Aviate are expected to maintain high standards of performance while in the
program. Performance measurements will be based on a Participant’s five years of service
immediately prior to transitioning to United, *****or such shorter period of service as United may
determine in its sole discretion******, and will be inclusive of the following six general criteria:"

It clearly states they may waive it less than 5 years if they see the individual improved as I explained before, so it actually helps the individual. If you were absent that one time 4 years ago, they can waive it, etc.

Your quotation of discretion is right and legal jargon. They can remove the program at any time, and it cant last forever. Making it not a true flow which is a big negative of the Aviate program. It is not like Piedmont or Endeavor or Envoy, where it is explicitly stated in their pilot contract and has no BS or fine print like Aviate. At those regionals, you will flow 100% no matter how many absences or whatever you have.

In the end, since United owns 10% of Mesa stock, I think sometime in the future United will allow Mesa FO's to Contractually flow to United, like AAWO/ENDV. United loves Mesa, and has a lot of stake in it.
Further, I dont think anyone TODAY has to worry about aviate shutting down. The regional pilot shortage will last for years. If you join Aviate this year or next, I'm positive you are safe to flow successfully. If you join Aviate 5 years from now when airlines start to stablize, then yeah, I think it will shut down while you are waiting to flow.

AerChungus

You make a lot of good points, I'm hopeful that they would continue to bend the rules a little to get people on board with sick calls.

I agree especially with your last point. I expect the flow to last only as long as it needs to last to satisfy UA's hiring needs, then it will go the way of the dodo... or just become some 10-15 year trap

TwoDaysBehind

UA doesn't need Aviate to satisfy their own hiring needs.

Aviate, as all metered flow scams, is to deceive aspiring pilots into flying for a regional for longer than they need to while foregoing grabbing a seniority number at the first legacy carrier to call. Which means they'll sit years behind their actual peers.

Those currently flowing could've been a year ahead of the hiring wave at the competitors. The date of hire is the most valuable career progression metric, even a few months difference make any other contract comparisons moot.

ninerdriver

It's meant to help United.

If it helps United to bring more individuals in, then United will use discretion to let individuals in. For example, United can change the rules to let all Whiskey pilots in first, because that would help United bury a competitor's regional.

If it helps United to kill the program, then they'll kill the program. For example, if the economy tanks, then Aviate will almost certainly go away. Ask 9E pilots how the non-contractual DGI worked out when Covid hit.

awaywego

how does aviate work with previous 121 failures? Sounds like it’s a doa for the applicant?