Gary et al

I love your kind, so ignorant and think that is actually a justifiable argument.

Its not, it is absolutely different. I am already here, I have decent seniority. Where I am now, how would it make sense to leave to "where ever I can get hired." Or to simply just quit and hope I find something before money runs out and the family can't eat? I am open to a lot of possibilities, not just the DL,UL,AA...but to leave just to tell Frontier to F off without a plan to support my family, that is nonsensical. Could I go to a regional? Sure...but then I'd be worse off then the guy already there wanting to come here. I should have never come here in the first place, but I'm here now, trying to make it a better place in the event I don't get out.

On the other hand somebody already at a regional looking to come to Frontier. Is Frontier better in the long run, absolutely. Would it be even better if you waited, you bet. Is it better now...not really, I liked it here overall initially, at this point though it was better at my regional. The regional guy looking to come here will take a PAY CUT, be out thousands in additional expenses during training that are not covered, most regionals are giving bonuses so the pay cut is even larger. Already has seniority where they are and would be giving that up to likely commute which you mention in a different thread as a reason to leave a regional, or at least be badly abused on reserve all over again after finishing that mess with their regional. Oh and then there is everything else wrong with Frontier right now with management, AND the pilots and ALPA are all pleading you not to come. That you are telling each pilot here for your entire time at this airline with that well recognizable employee number that you are in it for you, you don't give a F about the other pilots here, and you don't care about what is required to better the group.

So no, just quitting is not the same as waiting a few months while those of us here fix the situation so that you can then come and reap the rewards, and yes if nobody came to class for a few months it would absolutely be fixed.

Its not blaming the new hires for our predicament, its recognizing that despite all that is going on and being said, these people just don't care, and those aren't the kind of people anybody wants in their life.

BlackhawkIP

Nearly two years ago when I went to a job fair, Frontier was not on my list of airlines I was targeting. Frontier wasn't even in my vocabulary. Like many, I was looking at the legacy carriers along with SWA and AK due to their West coast bases.
As I was walking down the aisle, I started talking to a couple of the PILOTS at the Frontier booth. They weren't company HR or non-pilot recruiters, they were Frontier line pilots. It was this conversation that the following points were made:
1. Contract sucked, but a new contract would be ratified within 6-9 months.
2. Las Vegas was in the works as a new pilot base.
3. A tight-nit pilot group with only 1100 on the rolls vs 1000s at the other majors.
4. The "wave" of hiring at Frontier was just beginning and the time to come was NOW.
5. Proposed new aircraft and expansion with significant cash reserves insured longevity and security.

The point here is that I wasn't sold on Frontier by some company recruiting video or company HR puke, it was the excitement of Frontier pilots. I get the frustration of the current pilot group with the delays Indigo has played in the negotiations. They are the masters of manipulation and have played their hand well. It is business and all about the mighty dollar.
Sure, look at my employee number and judge me for being here. I came to Frontier because of the pilot group and the potential for growth and opportunity for me and my family. I NEVER spoke to a Frontier management or HR employee until I came to INDOC. This forum and ALPA at the time were NOT saying anything about not coming here. That came about this past summer after the April negotiations stalemate and the lawsuit.
Through all the preparation and expenses it took to get hired, the one piece of advice I remember most was "take the first CJO offered by a major airline that has a domicile near where you want to live." That's exactly what I did. Now certain Frontier pilots want to chastise me and others like me for making the same decision?

So be it....

Gary et al

IMO the "labeled" employee numbers are later than that. Definitely by August this year the info was widespread enough and easy to find. Of course it's just my opinion, but I think many see a line closer to July/August as the time when "you should have known better"

Leslie Chow

Contract late??? Thank a 428.

Wheelswatch

If you flew blackhawks, you're probably not staying here too much longer anyway, right? You should have plenty of buddies at the big 3 that can pull you in. PS. you 100% deserve any privilege that might come from the service you've given to our country. I am absolutely sincere; these are my own feelings on the matter, and I really don't care what anyone else thinks.

Biffy

I tend to agree with Gary et al on this one. Like most of his comments he is spot on. 428XXX employees interviewed in Spring and Summer of 2018. They started in Sep' 2018 before the strike vote was released. Before the website was released. While pilots were still positive a contract was moving along. Let's fast forward to 429XXX. Vacations being canceled, ALPA videos saying steer clear. No contract movement. No negotiations scheduled. Union held job fairs to get pilots OUT! Why would anyone come here and accept that kind of treatment? Even the pilots on the seniority list are trying to get out.

It's kind of like saying you are ok with the way management is acting and treating the pilots. That or it's self serving. You decide.

TrojanCMH

I’m just an outsider looking in so my opinion doesn’t really mean squat but why not chastise everyone who picked up open time? I don’t think it’s fair to single out a handful of people who were just trying to do what’s in their and their families best interests, whatever their reasons may be. I don’t think any of these guys and gals purposefully applied and accepted a job at Frontier to railroad your efforts. Most likely they had no idea what was going on. If anything they’ll probably say that the explosive growth, Denver base, and new contract in the pipeline made them want to apply. I agree that we as pilots should have a general understanding of what’s going on in the industry but the reality is some don’t.


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Biffy

That sir, would be an illegal work action and not something I’m willing to discuss. I will say you have a valid argument, but it is clear the Union is unpleased with Frontier management and encouraging them to seek other options. If they choose to come here and not receive a warm welcome..... well.... what did they expect?? They shouldn’t complain when they have no vacation, money, pay for hotels in training, sit reserve for 16 months, or fly with a CA that is less than enthused with them. The info is all out there. If they didn’t research that, maybe they should only blame themselves. Every pilot I’ve ever flown with researches a job before going there.

Flying the contract is an entirely different subject.

CGLimits

Totally disagree. Once they are here they should be treated with respect, like everyone else. I hope they don’t put up from any bullying by captains that are “less than enthused with them”. I certainly would not put up with that. Not to mention that as a captain one of your jobs is to set a good tone and foster a good work environment. So please leave the new hires alone. This is getting really stupid.

TrojanCMH

Whatever, to each their own, I get what you’re saying as well. In a perfect world hiring would stop during nasty negotiations but realistically that’s not going to happen. To throw around the scab word and start calling them “wounds” is a bit much but again just my opinion.