cloudwarrior

Great Points, I'd have to agree with most, Except for pref-bid - that would suck A LOT for us!!
FWIW
As for the future bases, I just got done with trips in both CLE & TTN, and would guess IMHO, that CLE will be a base in the future,(IAH Mostly possible after service is established); while TTN - no way in hell.
just my opinion.
Just Happy to be chatting about this good stuff (bases & growth), vs rah stuff... Great Times are Ahead!!!!

Barley

So what's the argument against prefbid? I know everyone is scared to death of it, but I've yet to run across anyone that can articulate why they don't like it. More importantly they have zero experience with it. I've worked under it and it was completely fine.

IAD... unless you are in the loop on another city

FAULTPUSH

My understanding is that the TWA folks loved pref bidding. Perhaps there's someone who worked there and can elaborate. The ones that I've talked to say that it takes solid contractual language to make sure it's done right, and I would be opposed to pref bidding without that.

By "virtual domicile", I mean that pref bidding could allow you to say that you want your trips to start in, say, LAS, or even that you want a trip that starts on the 20th in LAS. Pref Bid would look for other people who wanted something complementary to your request, and build whatever trips it could to begin and end in LAS by having other pilots with the same request meet you when you finished your trip there.

Honest question here: Is the sole reason that airline management wants pref bid so that they can avoid paying for trips that are dropped for conflicts, or is there more to it than that?

I agree - TTN would be a nightmare to staff when the weather went down and nobody could get there.

Barley

Yes, but any aspect to schedules, pay, or work rules requires solid contractual language.

Yup, however, virtual-basing is a feature not part of every prefbid software package.

sulkair

I'll take a stab: Caveat - my experience was at Mesa. So feel free to take all this with a block of salt...

We had paper bidding almost identical to F9 for years, of course we didn't have any flexibility post award like F9. Then one day the union gave it away for Pref Bid and it did suck badly. Obviously the top 10% of the list fared well, but they always fare well. The vast majority of us hated it.

PBS could literally spit anything out at you. Sometimes it would ignore everything you put in and give you something 180 degrees out of phase with your "preferences." Opening up the award was downright frightening, and more often than not, my heart would sink and/or my blood would boil with what I would see.

There was no end to the barrage of emails from angry pilots to the union, the company, whoever would listen asking what "happened this month"? For all the promises, over the years, nothing was ever done to improve it.

With paper bidding, there is no surprise, and IMHO for that reason alone it is better. With paper, if you need a certain day off for whatever reason, well then you just don't bid a line that works that day. With paper you can always sort of tell which of your choices will act as a safety net, or a catch all, in the case that one of your dream choices doesn't grab. With PBS you honestly don't know what the hell is coming.

We are all influenced by our experiences. And I might be running scared for no reason because an F9 pref bid might not resemble a Mesa pref bid at all. But I do know one thing... Paper bidding at Mesa was way better than Pref bid at Mesa.

I'll give Pref bid one plus. For bidding reserve it was better because you could specify exact days off, and with a little seniority usually get them - that's as far as I'll go.

Maybe as FAULTPUSH mentions, strong contractual language can make the difference, but I'd be more worried about how Pref bid would impact all the positive features we have currently wrt to flexibility. And really from our perspective as pilots, what is the point of PBS given the swap/drop flexibility we already have?

IMO, I believe companies want PBS because it represents PILOTS WORKING HARDER FOR LESS.

zoooropa

I have worked for three airlines. Two bid hard lines and one had pref bid.

Pref Bid pros...

1. Bidding. Pref bid makes it a lot easier to bid. No more sorting, no more digging through hundreds of lines. Bid for something or bid against something and let the magic happen.

2. Seniority rules. I mean, seniority f'n rules with pref bid. If you are senior you can build a sweet line (assuming the sequences/pairings don't completely suck).

3. Junior lines sometimes don't suck as bad. Once again, the details matter and if the sequences suck you are screwed but one man's trash is another man's treasure. With pref bid it is possible (not probable) to get exactly what you want, you are not restricted to the hard lines already built.

4. City/overnights. If you have a hard on for a specific city pref bid will get you there as often as possible.

That is it. I consider these "pros" or benefits, but they don't create more income, they don't give ME more control over my schedule. The Company has ultimate control with pref bid.

Pref Bid Cons...

1. Monthly integration overlap. Pref bid eliminates any overlap/conflict. With hard lines you can bid to create conflict and with our CBA you then have super seniority in monthly open time. Once you have super seniority you can...suffice it to say you can create a better schedule. Those that understand our current MOT system are happy. This is important...our CBA, specifically Section 5, was written to create options. The option for extra time off exists as well as the option to increase compensation. Pref bid eliminates those options.

2. Vacation conflict. I can pretty much stop right there but I won't. Our vacation pay potential is huge. The ability to slide vacation either way and drop flying (and then pick it right back up for double pay if you are so inclined) is great. Pref bid eliminates any conflict. Everyone's vacation will pay the same. The #1 guy on the list will get paid the exact number of hours of credit per day on vacation as the most junior new hire. Pref bid destroys the benefit of seniority with regard to vacations and our CBA. This is one of the many reasons the Company wants pref bid so badly.

3. Training pay conflict. Do you want to sit in RGS for eight hours and get paid for four? How about sitting in RGS and getting paid for a 28 hour 4-Day pairing that was dropped. I will take option b thank you very much.

4. Unstacking. Holy shot this alone should kill pref bid. Consider this...christmas is coming up and everyone bids against flying on 24/25. The first 30% of the seniority list get Christmas off, then the number of open duty periods on Christmas triggers the unstacking of open time and a whole bunch of pretty senior dudes and dudettes get assigned flying on Christmas. Once the open time flying is solved the system reverts back to normal and a bunch of junior folks get their first choice, christmas off. Unstacking is a gigantic CF and a huge violation of seniority.

5. Unstacking part II. One trick that the Company will use during popular holidays is create a huge number of sequences/pairings that touch a popular day. A huge number of 5/4/3/2 day sequences end on Christmas and a huge number of 5/4/3/2 day sequences start on Christmas. This way they have a very high percentage of crews available, just in case, for a reassignment. With hard lines they need to spread the block hours across the entire month (per the CBA). Pref Bid creates a lot of mystery. Mystery is the worst thing imaginable when it comes to bidding.

6. Reality. The company tried very hard to push pref bid during the contract 2007 negotiations. During the 2008 BK they tried very hard to push pref bid. During LOA 17, and 20, and 21, and 39 they tried to push pref bid. It was a big item during LOA 67. For some strange reason they keep asking for Pref Bid. Do you think it benefits them more than it benefits you? Do you think it creates a cost savings, at your expense?

Pref Bid, when compared to our current system, is a multi-multi-multi million dollar annual concession. It has already been analyzed and the cost has been established. It is a huge concession.

The worst thing this pilot group could possibly do at this juncture is agree to pref bid.

Cross Check

I wouldn't trust frontier with pref bid. I will vote no if it ever comes up.

zoooropa

Final side note...the fact that pref bid has come up so often leads me (paranoid) to believe they have another idea up their sleeve.

I think this pilot group is on the same page, more unified then ever, and we are going to need to remain that way if we want to maximize our ROI.

Aero1900

Zoo, thank you for taking the time to write that up.

MtnPeakCruiser

This post is spot on. Anyone that is unfamiliar with Preferrential Bidding Systems needs to read this again. Even with good contract language PBS will destroy our quality of life at Frontier!